Once Saved Always Saved

[Ed Edwards]

Assume a post-tribulation resurrection/rapture only.
If a saved person goes into the Tribulation
and denies Jesus is Lord just before he dies
(say under torture he denies Jesus is Lord and
is killed for hanging out with Christians)*.
what is his fate: eternal heaven or eternal hell?

*note - yes this happend in the persecutions
of the 2ed century (101-200) and 3rd century
(201=300).

As OSAS believer I believe such a person will
enjoy eternal heaven. He shall, however, miss
out (suffer loss) on a Matyr's Crown to give to Jesus.

Sorry, I just don't believe in a mean God.
And it is mean to put people in a situation
where only people who can kill themselves
by stopping their heart (1 in a million can do
that, you know) can succeed.

Those of you who know you have the Spiritual
Gift of Martyrdom need not reply, this discussion is for
us that have gifts like discernment, prophecy.
administration, music, helps, interpertation-of-tongues,
teaching, etc.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

BR
"Both Eph 2 and Matt 18 are true -- BECAUSE neither of them teach the debunked doctrinal view of OSAS."

GE
'Debunked' by whom? 'Debunked' since when? By giants of the Faith like Spurgeon, Calvin, Luther, ALL the other Reformers, ALL the Puritans, Great men like Witfield, John Owen, Apostles like Paul, John, by the Master Teacher of all, Jesus Christ, debunked? Who are, you, Bob Ryan?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For all millenia the Church existed, OSAS where preached and proclaimed, the comfort and encouragement of the Elect of God - His Own, has been preached and proclaimed. Behold BobRyan the debunker of all the work of God and His humble servants to this day!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Yes, he has taken it upon himself to make it his life's aim and purpose to debunk the Divine Truth Once God Saved the Lost He Saved him for Ever and Always. Bob Ryan has decided and has taken the honour of the calling upon himself to herald the WARNING against, and to destroy, the Comfort of the soul.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Assume a post-tribulation resurrection/rapture only. If a saved person goes into the Tribulation
and denies Jesus is Lord just before he dies
(say under torture he denies Jesus is Lord and
is killed for hanging out with Christians), what is his fate: eternal heaven or eternal hell?

GE
I think I have answered your supposition?

 

[charles_creech78]

Yes, he has taken it upon himself to make it his life's aim and purpose to debunk the Divine Truth Once God Saved the Lost He Saved him for Ever and Always. Bob Ryan has decided and has taken the honour of the calling upon himself to herald the WARNING against, and to destroy, the Comfort of the soul.

Amen , amen, amen, amen:godisgood: :applause:

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....


Saved by faith through grace.

Not "saved by OSAS"

But as already pointed out - we can "observe" that OSAS failed in Matt 18, Romans 11, John 15, 2 Peter 2:20 etc etc.

What you meant to say is "saved by grace through faith" .

It is not OSAS that has failed.

What must would have failed, if anything failed at all, is "grace through faith" lest your position on salvation by grace through faith is the error, which it is not.

In all of your "debunking" scriptures you will have to point to the verses that show "grace through faith" being the failure. This you have not done.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

In the Bible God warns man and blames man -- in OSAS defenses it is always "God" who has failed if OSAS must go.

But that is not an exegetically sound appraisal of Matt 18, or John 15, or Romans 11 or Gal 5 or any of the myriad of texts debunking the failed OSAS doctrine - it is just blindly clinging to the man-made position of OSAS no matter what you find in scripture.

Not saying you can't do that -- just observing what you are doing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5:4 NASB
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 KJV
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 NIV
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 NKJV
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Ed said

If you are still trying to be justified by the Law you never got saved.

There is no "never were with Christ, never were Under grace" concept in Gal 5:4 rather we see there the same REMOVING from Christ that we see in john 15 And in Romans 11.


[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?



[/FONT]

 

[Linda64]

THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z

Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)

Born of God (1 John 5:1)

Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)

Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)

Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)

Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32)

Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)

Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3)

Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)

Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)

Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)

Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Nourished in the words of faith (1 Timothy 4:6)

Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48)

Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)

Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13)

Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)

Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)

Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22)

Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)

Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5)

Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26)

Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)

These riches belong to EVERY born again believer in Christ Jesus. EVERY believer is eternally secure in Christ Jesus!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Sister Linda64 -- you are so RIGHT ON! :thumbs:

 

[charles_creech78]

THE BELIEVER'S RICHES IN CHRIST FROM A TO Z

Accepted in the beloved (Ephesians 1:6)

Born of God (1 John 5:1)

Crucified with Christ (Galatians 2:20)

Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)

Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)

Forgiven for Christ's sake (Ephesians 4:32)

Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)

Hid with Christ (Colossians 3:3)

Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)

Justified by His grace (Titus 3:7)

Kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)

Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Nourished in the words of faith (1 Timothy 4:6)

Ordained to eternal life (Acts 13:48)

Perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14)

Quickened together with Christ (Ephesians 2:5)

Redeemed from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13)

Sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13)

Translated into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13)

Unreproveable in His sight (Colossians 1:22)

Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)

Washed from our sins in his own blood (Revelation 1:5)

Yearned over by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26)

Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)

These riches belong to EVERY born again believer in Christ Jesus. EVERY believer is eternally secure in Christ Jesus!

Amen amen amen to all of it.

 

[BobRyan]

Good post Linda -- but did you mean that for the "good works" thread??

 

[Linda64]

Good post Linda -- but did you mean that for the "good works" thread??

No, I didn't. Those riches in Christ are NOT good works--they are promises which God has given to all believers--the assurance of eternal life--the eternal security of every born again child of God.

 

[BobRyan]

I see -- Still some things in the list would appear to apply to those topics

THE BELIEVER'S WALK in Christ



Delivered from the power of darkness (Colossians 1:13)

Enriched in everything in Him (1 Corinthians 1:5)


Grounded in love (Ephesians 3:17)


Instructed in the way of the Lord (Acts 18:25)


Led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Made nigh by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14)

Nourished in the words of faith (1 Timothy 4:6)

Victorious through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)

Zealous of good works (Titus 2:14)

 

[BobRyan]

No a-to-Z titles here -- sorry.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

'For Ever' has no END

Sorry, I don't have time to go through all your errors again
one by one. here is one:

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED

the correct equation is:

Belief = enduring to the END + SAVED

Mark 13:13 (NASB):
You will be hated by all because of My name,
but the one who endures to the end,
he will be saved.

John 3:16 (NASB):
For God so loved the world, that He gave His
only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him
shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world
to judge the world, but that the world
might be saved through Him.

I.E. 'saved' is defined as: 'have eternal life'
'Saved' comes by 'believes in Him'

Wrong statement: Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
from John 3:16-17 'have eternal life' is substituted for SAVED
(a quanity can be substituted for it's equal in any equation)

Belief + enduring to the END = have eternal life
enduring to the End /not equal/ have eternal life
'eternal life' has no end. So the equation can't be true.
Therefore I propose that Mark 13:13 says:

Belief = enduring to the END + SAVED

If you believe in Jesus, HE will
save you and you will endure to the END
/This statement is true no matter what 'end' might mean./

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....

In the Bible God warns man and blames man -- in OSAS defenses it is always "God" who has failed if OSAS must go.

If you stand by the truth "by grace ye are saved through faith" (and you SAY that you do) then grace through faith is the ONLY ingredient that has any possibility at all of changing one's salvation.

If you do not truly believe in "grace through faith" when you claim "grace through faith" then why not just say so?

Why don't you claim "grace through faith, endurance, good deeds, no sinning, perfectly forgiving others, etc, etc is salvation" ??

When put on the spot you want to claim "by grace through faith" is the only means of salvation. But then you continue to post on the contrary of that premise over and over.

Not forgiving another is not in the statement "by grace ye are saved through faith". So you must seek and learn what the parable actually is teaching. It cannot be what you believe it must be, lest you do not believe what you claim you believe about "grace through faith".

It is your conflict to settle in your own heart. You have not convinced ONE person on this board that your position is correct concerning Matt 18. You keep repeating it over and over, it seems you are trying to convince yourself?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Eph 2 did not stop with verse 8 -- and that is why OSAS fails.

your argument works in a tightly confined myopic -- snippet-bible model where you look at one or two texts to the exclusion of the rest of scripture. But in doing so you end up with "good bible" vs "bad bible" where you must continually circle back to that tiny spot that does not of itself debunk OSAS.

I try never to paint myself into such corners.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Post 216 is nothing but Bible texts -- with a few tiny headlines at about 1%

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1107704&postcount=216

The next post appears to declare the texts to be in error --

That is confusing.

A better approach would be to SHOW how OSAS "survives" that list of texts.

in Christ,

Bob