Once Saved Always Saved

[Ed Edwards]

I try never to paint myself into such corners.

Tee Hee! The only corner you've painted right
is that the Sabbath starts Friday evening at
Sundown and Ends Saturday evening at Sundown.
You do your Sabbath from Sundown to Sundown - Yes?

Anyway, Sunday is not the Sabbath -
Sunday is the first day of the week.

There are verses that say that Baptism is part
of the Salvation of Jesus. In fact, like many other
things, the scripture passages are about half-and-half:
half say Baptism is required, the other half omits the
necessity of Baptism. John the Baptist said that
a person should be Baptized to show that they
had repented. Anyway, how do you decide between
two equally valid understandings of the Scripture?
Name three ways

1. flip a coin (let God say which)
2. believe Both
3. guess one or the other

only the first is Scriptural.

Moving right along ...

 

[David Lamb]

Eph 2 did not stop with verse 8 -- and that is why OSAS fails.

in Christ,

Bob

No, Ephesians 2 doesn't end at verse 8.

Verse 9 tells us that salvation is not of works.

Verse 10 says that Christians are God's workmanship.

Verses 11 & 12 give an example of the uselessness of works, even religious ceremonies, in the matter of making us right with God.

Verse 13 talks of being brought near by the blood of Christ.

Where do any of those things cause the perseverance of the saints to fail?

 

[BobRyan]

Look up "good works" in your Bible in the NT --

Simple Question: Does the Bible approve or disapprove?

I keep asking this question -- if no one takes the time to do it -- I will post the list of texts for you to debunk.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

List of texts showing OSAS to be in error -

No a-to-Z titles here -- sorry.

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1 Timothy 4:16
Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

 

[BobRyan]

No, Ephesians 2 doesn't end at verse 8.
Verse 9 tells us that salvation is not of works.
Verse 10 says that Christians are God's workmanship.
Verses 11 & 12 give an example of the uselessness of works, even religious ceremonies, in the matter of making us right with God.

Verse 13 talks of being brought near by the blood of Christ.
Where do any of those things cause the perseverance of the saints to fail?

My argument is not that Eph 2 debunks OSAS -- other texts do but Eph 2 does not come out and directly refute OSAS as it makes it's case for the Gospel.

I never argue that EVERY text of scripture is directly debunking OSAS or any other specific doctrinal error. They are all making specific points but not always to one topic.

My point was that we should read the text not simply snippet back to one verse as if the texts that challenge false doctrine did not exist.

After all - what JW or Mormon or Pope could not use such tactics to supporty ANY of a host of false doctrines??

 

[BobRyan]

Tee Hee! The only corner you've painted right
is that the Sabbath starts Friday evening at
Sundown and Ends Saturday evening at Sundown.
You do your Sabbath from Sundown to Sundown - Yes?

I believe that but you never provided a list of texts to show that this puts me in a corner.

(And I notice you switched topics -- are you agreeing that on this topic I have not painted myself into the corner that those who must "stay in Eph 2 no matter what texts are debunking OSAS at the moment"?)

Anyway, Sunday is not the Sabbath -
Sunday is the first day of the week.

Agreed.

There are verses that say that Baptism is part
of the Salvation of Jesus. In fact, like many other
things, the scripture passages are about half-and-half:
half say Baptism is required, the other half omits the
necessity of Baptism. John the Baptist said that
a person should be Baptized to show that they
had repented. Anyway, how do you decide between
two equally valid understandings of the Scripture?

1. Exegesis that is rock solid for that book that author and his audience.
2. Looking for a harmony across scripture on that topic.

When you find that one doctrinal view works and the other is "up hill all the way" you should throw away the shovel and take the Bible approved "yet possibly unpopular" solution.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[David Lamb]

Look up "good works" in your Bible in the NT --

Simple Question: Does the Bible approve or disapprove?

I keep asking this question -- if no one takes the time to do it -- I will post the list of texts for you to debunk.

in Christ,

Bob

I am not avoiding the issue when I say that it depends. If the theme is how sinners are saved, then the bible does not approve of works, be they good or bad, as the means of salvation. On the other hand, sinners are saved for good works, as the Christians in Ephesus are told in Ephesians 2.10:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for

​

good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

​

In that context, good works are indeed approved of.

 

[BobRyan]

If the theme is how sinners are saved, then the bible does not approve of works, be they good or bad, as the means of salvation. On the other hand, sinners are saved for good works, as the Christians in Ephesus are told in Ephesians 2.10:

you have "spoken well" - now the rubber meets the road when we ask "but do you really believe what you just said?".

You said "The BIBLE does not approve of works as a MEANS of salvation" - a statement that fits perfectly with what Paul says in Gal 3.

Do you believe that this is true IN ALL of scripture? Do you believe this is the ONE GOSPEL teaching of scripture -- the BIBLE -- ALL of it?

Or do you slice it into two gospels. A Bible for OT Christians teaching salvation by works and another one for NT christians teaching salvation by Grace?

Are you willing to stick with your statement?

ONE Gospel -- ONE truth taught in ALL of the "BIBLE" and so the commands in the OT for obedience and the commands in the NT calling for obedience (1Cor 10, Rom 8, Rom 6, Rom 2 etc) are in fact ALL speaking to the same point?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To understand that OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved) is error not taught in scripture we must first see what the Bible defines as “salvation” condition for the saints.

Gal 5:4 NASB
4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 KJV
4Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 5:4 NIV
4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Gal 5:4 NKJV
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.


Notice the above text shows now “NEVER were with Christ” meaning at all – rather it shows the same SEVERED FROM Christ concept as John 15, and Romans 11


Now let’s consider the Bible definition of one who is saved is the following.

#1. Reconciled to Christ - in fellowship with Christ.
#2. At peace with God in the light of His grace to us. (Rom 5:1
#3. Forgiven of sins (1John 1:9)
#4. Christ as our Mediator confessing us as His own before the courts of heaven. (1John 2:1)
#5. Faith that is alive and growing James 2:14-27, Heb 11:1-4
#6. Partaking of the Holy Spirit and the heavenly blessings of the age to come.
#7. Freedom from slavery to sin - escape from the tyranny of being forced to sin.
Walking in the Spirit and putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Walking as Christ walked rather than lying about our relationship to Christ.
(1John 2:2-5, Romans 8:3-9, Romans 6 all, Romans 2 all)

By contrast –


Matt 18:21-35 Forgiveness revoked.
John 15:1-6 removed from the vine of Christ – withered -cast into the fire
Romans 11 – Removed from the tree of Christ – because of unbelief.



Best argument – to date: (Against “no-perseverance” group of OSAS)

MMAN –

II Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1034131&postcount=9


SOME of the OSAS people claim to believe in eternal hell and to believe that this failure to persevere simply means that you are “OSAS Saved anyway but without persevering”.

Question:
HOW can it be WORSE? Worse to live with Christ forever than burn in hell forever?

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith[/b]. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness[/b]; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And [b]they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.




24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?


Warnging about Forgiveness revoked – OR God reminding himself that He needs to remember to make us “forgiving” if He wants us saved.


Matt 18
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035489&postcount=59
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035498&postcount=64
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1035503&postcount=67

Matt 18 <[b]Forgiveness Revoked!>
29 ""So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, "Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30 ""But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31 ""So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you[/b], if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.''
[/quote]


TRUE statement about those who ARE in Christ and joined to Christ – being SEVERED from Christ – or it could be construed as God reminding Himself that this is something that can never happen?

Severed FROM Christ and Fallen from grace

Gal 5
4 [b]You have been severed from Christ[/b], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?


--------------------------------------
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come

Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant

by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

[Ed Edwards]

As usual, you Salvic doctrine is incompatable with
your Eschatology (and both are wrong - but hey,
nobody but the Bible is perfect).

It seems like you have a mean God:
He is going to send all Christians into the
Tribulation Period and if they fail FRY THEM.

BTW, the death toll in Dafar of Christians (Black)
killed by Muslims (White) has reached 1.5Million.
The Tribulation has come to Dafar; but we won't
bother to help them cause they don't have
any known Oil reserves.

 

[BobRyan]

You have answered your own objection.

The RCC slaughtered around 50 million Christians during the dark ages - Pagan Rome slaughtered millions before that and yet some say that more Christians were slaughtered in the 20th century around the world than in all former ages combined -- just not in western Europe or the U.S so we often "ignore the vast numbers".

Bottom line is IF the bible meant to convey that "Christians would NOT encounter GREAT Tribulation" then we would have the Bible proved "wrong" even BEFORE the 7 last plagues.

Hence in Matt 24 "BUT AFTER the tribulation of those days ... He will gather His elect".

The Bible sets the RIGHT expectations.

Having said that - I do not think the saints will be going through the period of the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) unprotected - RATHER Rev 7 makes it VERY clear that the saints are SEALED into Christ BEFORE the last great time of trouble is allowed to break upon the world.

However as post 229 and 230 point out -- OSAS fails long before you get to the last tribulation period for the saints.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1110939&postcount=229


in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

10:23-26 ;(NASB)
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,
for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another
to love and good deeds,
not forsaking our own assembling together,
as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another;
and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving
the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains
a sacrifice for sins,

So someone reads this as a anti-OSAS passage?
It is one of the clearest most compelling OSAS passage
in the Bible.
Maybe then lost again, found again crowd reades
it as 'if you don't hold fast to the confession
then you will go to the NOT SAVED state'? No way.
It says the Saved will hold to the confession.
Who does this for me? The one who did the saving:
Messiah Jesus. "He who promised is faithful"

So I suggest ye who think Jesus can't hold the People He
Saved -- you need to get over it and start doing your
loving of the brother/sister-hood and the good deeds
(AKA: good works) that saved people do.

 

[BobRyan]

Is that a reference to my Post 229 or 230?

Sounds more like "perseverance" to me.

Which deserves its own thread

 

[Ed Edwards]

#230 but all i used was the scripture you used + my comments

//The RCC slaughtered around 50 million Christians during the dark ages - Pagan Rome slaughtered millions before that and yet some say that more Christians were slaughtered in the 20th century around the world than in all former ages combined -- just not in western Europe or the U.S so we often "ignore the vast numbers".//

Let me inspect your source of information.
Thank you.

I get my numbers from The Almanac of the Christian World,
1991-1992 (Tyndale, 1990):

Page 501-501 in an article called "Evangelization through
Martyrdom" taken from OUR GLOBE AND HOW TO
REACH IT by David B Barrett of the Foreign Mission
Board (now International Missions Board) of the
Southern Baptist Convention (New Hope, 1990).

Oh, here it is on-line now (needs Adobe Reader):

http://www.gcts.edu/ockenga/globalchristianity/gd/gd16.pdf

The dates there are 30AD to 2000AD (ten years more than mine
book). Humm, some 40% of Martyrs were killed 1991-2000
the last decade of the 20th century. The data shows some
12 Million RCC Martyrs and only 5 Million killed by the RCC.

 

[BobRyan]

Post 230 -- part B
Peace with God replaced by a certain terrifying expectation of judgment to come


Heb 10
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.[/b]
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment[/b] do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?


BY WHICH HE WAS SANCTIFIED --is the part that debunks OSAS -- unless it is your claim that the LOST WERE sanctified while lost. My argument by contrast would be that the LOST are first Justified (saved) and then daily sanctified. But the unsaved are NOT sanctified until they accept salvation.



1Timothy 3:1-6

2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5(but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

Yet here we can “CLEARLY” see that the reason a bishop is not to be a new convert is because he can “FALL” into the very same condemnation of the devil. Now I ask you; how can a convert fall into the same condemnation of the devil and still be on the road to heaven? He can’t.

Question was posed by Ken at
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1056007&postcount=79

 

[BobRyan]

The RCC claims to have killed more than that - you would think that an independent source would be at least as accurate as those whose organization did the crimes - claim to be.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45674
Posted: August 9, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com
I'm also encouraged by Benedict XVI, who seems to have inherited John Paul II's humility as well as his loyalty to foundational doctrines. On Jan. 22, 1998, when he was still a cardinal and the grand Inquisitor (yes!) of the Roman Catholic Church, he declared that their archives (4,500 large volumes) indicate a death toll of 25 million killed by the Catholic Church for being "heretics." And likely two-thirds of the original volumes are lost. That kind of honesty will help relations (though there is no basis for uniting the RCC with Bible-believing Protestant churches).

I am more than happy to start with Benedicts 1998 statement and then be somewhat generous with the 2/3 lost issue to just 1/2 lost.

Undeniable "tribulation" faced by the saints. Too late to argue "the church never went through severe tribulation"

 

[steaver]

Eph 2 did not stop with verse 8 -- and that is why OSAS fails.

your argument works in a tightly confined myopic -- snippet-bible model where you look at one or two texts to the exclusion of the rest of scripture. But in doing so you end up with "good bible" vs "bad bible" where you must continually circle back to that tiny spot that does not of itself debunk OSAS.

I try never to paint myself into such corners.

in Christ,

Bob

Actually brother the "snippit-bible" used was your own answer that was given to a specific question.

Charles asked you this question in post #195.....

Bob how are you saved?

Your answer was in post #196....

Saved by faith through grace.

As you can see, by grace through faith is the only answer YOU gave for one's salvation. It is not I who has done any "snipping". It is not "my argument" that is "a tightly confined myopic ".

You gave the "myopic" as your answer to the salvation question. Do you now wish to withdraw the answer or expand the answer, now that it seems to have painted you into that corner which you wish to avoid?

So unless your answer "by grace though faith" is changed, you are in a very constricted place (praise God) in regards to where you can take other scriptures such as Matt 18.

Therefore, until your position of "by grace through faith" changes in some way, my point remains unchallenged by you.

If you stand by the truth "by grace ye are saved through faith" (and you SAY that you do) then grace through faith is the ONLY ingredient that has any possibility at all of changing one's salvation.

If you do not truly believe in "grace through faith" when you claim "grace through faith" then why not just say so?

Why don't you claim "grace through faith, endurance, good deeds, no sinning, perfectly forgiving others, etc, etc is salvation" ??

When put on the spot you want to claim "by grace through faith" is the only means of salvation. But then you continue to post on the contrary of that premise over and over.

Not forgiving another is not in the statement "by grace ye are saved through faith". So you must seek and learn what the parable actually is teaching. It cannot be what you believe it must be, lest you do not believe what you claim you believe about "grace through faith".

It is your conflict to settle in your own heart. You have not convinced ONE person on this board that your position is correct concerning Matt 18. You keep repeating it over and over, it seems you are trying to convince yourself?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

I answer according to Eph 2 "By grace you are saved through faith" but I never anser "Eph 2:8 is the only text in the Bible".

Hence my list of texts showing how OSAS is debunked in scripture starting here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1110939#post1110939

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

(BobRyan)....

I answer according to Eph 2 "By grace you are saved through faith" but I never anser "Eph 2:8 is the only text in the Bible".

Yes. I believe that is what I said and is why my point remains unchallenged. You agreeing with my point does not refute my conclusions.

If you stand by the truth "by grace ye are saved through faith" (and you SAY that you do) then grace through faith is the ONLY ingredient that has any possibility at all of changing one's salvation.

If you do not truly believe in "grace through faith" when you claim "grace through faith" then why not just say so?

Why don't you claim "grace through faith, endurance, good deeds, no sinning, perfectly forgiving others, etc, etc is salvation" ??

When put on the spot you want to claim "by grace through faith" is the only means of salvation. But then you continue to post on the contrary of that premise over and over.

Not forgiving another is not in the statement "by grace ye are saved through faith". So you must seek and learn what the parable actually is teaching. It cannot be what you believe it must be, lest you do not believe what you claim you believe about "grace through faith".

It is your conflict to settle in your own heart. You have not convinced ONE person on this board that your position is correct concerning Matt 18. You keep repeating it over and over, it seems you are trying to convince yourself?

God Bless! :thumbs: