Jesus appeared to Mary first, early on the First Day of the week, Mk16:9.
Thereafter He appeared to an unmentioned number of women together, Mt28:
Thereafter He appeared to an unmentioned number of women together, Mt28:
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One or several visits to the tomb?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
It could not be the same event; it could not be the same visit to the tomb; it could not be the same women -- Mary couldn't have been among the group at what supposedly was the women's visit virtually simultaneous with the Resurrection.
tragic_pizza
New Member
There is always confusion in eyewitness accounts.
There were, though, at least two visits: Mary (whether alone or in a group I don't know), then Peter and John.
However many visits is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? the tomb was, and remains, empty.
There were, though, at least two visits: Mary (whether alone or in a group I don't know), then Peter and John.
However many visits is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? the tomb was, and remains, empty.
tragic_pizza said:There is always confusion in eyewitness accounts.
There were, though, at least two visits: Mary (whether alone or in a group I don't know), then Peter and John.
However many visits is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? the tomb was, and remains, empty.
GE:
There is NEVER confusion - in the least - in Divine accounts such as the Scriptures here referred to. NO HUMAN EYE witnessed the resurrection of Christ from the grave. It was revealed to Divinely Inspired authors of the Scriptures the Word of God - not of men. SO MUCH DOES IT MATTER AND IS IT RELEVANT.
An empty tomb means nothing - that is romish traditional crap, stupidly admired by Protestants till this day. What matter is HOW that grave got empty.
Therefore, there were at least as many visits to the tomb as recorded in the Gospels, and they were not only two, but several : exactly as each time described. Now here's my point: It's absolutely impossible to find order or cohesion or agreement in any of the recordings in the Gospels if one visit of the women is supposed, while absolutely perfect order and agreement and cohesion become apparent and unavoidable and irrefutable, when every one of these visits is respected for its exactness and truth.
It matters as much as it matters that God is true.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Dude, you are impossible to talk to. Never mind.
tragic_pizza said:Dude, you are impossible to talk to. Never mind.
Sure, I'm not surprised you're unable to answer.
Here's the whole rundown:
http://members.aol.com/etb700/resurrection.html
http://members.aol.com/etb700/resurrection.html
tragic_pizza
New Member
Oh, I'd answer if you'd be rational.Gerhard Ebersoehn said:Sure, I'm not surprised you're unable to answer.
tragic_pizza said:Oh, I'd answer if you'd be rational.
Please Tragic, what is irrational in what I have said? I believe the Scriptures are infallibly trustworthy. Don't you?
Besides, the crux of Christian Faith is not understood unless in faith --- the resurrection especially. How could it be possible for human eyewitness to tell the truth of it? Only believers are able .. and believers are enlightened through grace by faith. Rationality in this realm is of special kind. It stands on absolute truth ... like no 'rationalistic' understanding can. The Truth of the Gospel is axiomatic truth - one departs from its truth - one does not arrive at it.
tragic_pizza
New Member
You said this, in response to a question about how many visits to the tomb:Gerhard Ebersoehn said:Please Tragic, what is irrational in what I have said?
Irrational it was, in that I did not mention Catholicism or dispute multiple trips to the tomb. Further, your question was specifically aimed at the visits to the tomb, and to spew off about how the empty tomb "doesn't matter," yada yada is either a sign of a poor grasp of Scripture or an itch to fight. I suspect the latter, though the former is, indeed, indicated.An empty tomb means nothing - that is romish traditional crap, stupidly admired by Protestants till this day. What matter is HOW that grave got empty.
Human surmising means nothing. Mary though the body was stolen --- she erred. Human imagination never can solve the mysteries of God.
"The angel answered the women". Here is the key to understanding HOW, the grave got empty. If I remember correctly the text actually says, "Answering/explaining, the angel siad ...". It implies he at this point in his explanation, had already explained some things to the women ... having had them informed with the very words of the PREVIOUS verses, 1 to 4! There is found the HOW of an empty tomb and a body not found. THAT, explains the women's very different reaction to the angel's words. Now only, do the women understand and obey accordingly. The fact explains why they BEFORE (Mark) reacted with fear and diobedience.
It adds up to the simple deduction: Different visits -- AGAINST tradition.
There are more readers than those who submit posts ....
"The angel answered the women". Here is the key to understanding HOW, the grave got empty. If I remember correctly the text actually says, "Answering/explaining, the angel siad ...". It implies he at this point in his explanation, had already explained some things to the women ... having had them informed with the very words of the PREVIOUS verses, 1 to 4! There is found the HOW of an empty tomb and a body not found. THAT, explains the women's very different reaction to the angel's words. Now only, do the women understand and obey accordingly. The fact explains why they BEFORE (Mark) reacted with fear and diobedience.
It adds up to the simple deduction: Different visits -- AGAINST tradition.
There are more readers than those who submit posts ....
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:GE:
There is NEVER confusion - in the least - in Divine accounts such as the Scriptures here referred to. NO HUMAN EYE witnessed the resurrection of Christ from the grave. It was revealed to Divinely Inspired authors of the Scriptures the Word of God - not of men. SO MUCH DOES IT MATTER AND IS IT RELEVANT.
An empty tomb means nothing - that is romish traditional crap, stupidly admired by Protestants till this day. What matter is HOW that grave got empty..
I agree, the ressurection was revealed divinely to author and the other guys...
Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
Thank you, Le Buick, it is encouraging. Helping me not to feel immensely foolish. People think I like to go upstream, or stir or rock the boat only to fall out myself. It's not easy.
But to see a bit more of truth, is rewarding; to see Jesus Christ in the plan of God's love offers satisfaction beyond imagination. I am glad. I revel in the Scriptures. It is my prize; I receive it with humbleness of heart and great joy.
But to see a bit more of truth, is rewarding; to see Jesus Christ in the plan of God's love offers satisfaction beyond imagination. I am glad. I revel in the Scriptures. It is my prize; I receive it with humbleness of heart and great joy.
One of the first principles - in fact the major - is to grasp it is NOT 'EYE-WITNESS-accounts' of Jesus' resurrection we read in the four Gospels; it is the Word of God. So away with 'each Gospel writer recalls from his own point of view'-theory. The only 'point of view' valid, is the eternal vista of Divine volition through Jesus Christ 'according to the Scriptures'.
Indeed, I admit I found it very hard -- through four decades (no much longer) of intense study and thinking (I'm not the brightest) to have arrived at this summary of the events subsequent to Jesus' resurrection:
a) The TWO Marys "SET OUT TO GO HAVE A LOOK AT the grave", "on Sabbath's afternoon" ... "when there suddenly was a great earthqueake" : and they were prevented from going.
b) The THREE women -- for Salome's sake who was not at the interment -- "after the Sabbath had gone through" (after sunset), "BOUGHT" spices and ointments. And went home to prepare these, naturally.
c) Mary catches a quick glimpse of the outside of the tomb and a rolled away stone "while EARLY DARKNESS STILL" (EVENING); she thinks the body stolen. She has no reason actually to believe the body is not in the tomb still, though!
d) So the women -- Luke names a few, led by the three who prepared spices - ignorant of the Resurrection and obviously believing the body was in the grave still - it being "DEEP EARLY NIGHT" (after midnight and the day for the Roman guard over), went to do what they planned to do with the "prepared spices" of FRIDAY AFTERNOON. The angels tell them to think over what Jesus had told them.
e) After having reflected, the three (main characters) "EARLY, AT THE RISING OF THE SUN", returned to ascertain. They believe not THE (ONE) angel's report, and flee in horror of fact and fiction --- maybe the Lord would meet Peter in his death in Galilee. "They TOLD NOBODY!" This is Mark, abruptly ending his story. John continues though ...
f) " ... BUT MARY STAYED STANDING AT THE GRAVE ...", when the Lord "appeared to (her) first, early on the First Day of the week" (Mark). It was the hour of day the gardener should have started work (John).
g) The other women who had left before this, most probably accompanied by others, went back to the tomb once more, where the angel "explaining to them" the Resurrection in detail, and they understood, and with great "fearing joy", immediately believing obeyed and went to Jerusalem to tell the disciples. It was now that Jesus appeared to them on their way.
Mary was not present, for it could not be recorded for truth that Jesus appeared to her "FIRST" - that is, only - if other women witnessed the same appearance.
Seven visits to the tomb (besides the mens'); two appearances; one Resurrection "In the Sabbath's being fulness of daylight". The Resurrection is mentioned in time-sequence first of all; in order of textual context, last.
a) The TWO Marys "SET OUT TO GO HAVE A LOOK AT the grave", "on Sabbath's afternoon" ... "when there suddenly was a great earthqueake" : and they were prevented from going.
b) The THREE women -- for Salome's sake who was not at the interment -- "after the Sabbath had gone through" (after sunset), "BOUGHT" spices and ointments. And went home to prepare these, naturally.
c) Mary catches a quick glimpse of the outside of the tomb and a rolled away stone "while EARLY DARKNESS STILL" (EVENING); she thinks the body stolen. She has no reason actually to believe the body is not in the tomb still, though!
d) So the women -- Luke names a few, led by the three who prepared spices - ignorant of the Resurrection and obviously believing the body was in the grave still - it being "DEEP EARLY NIGHT" (after midnight and the day for the Roman guard over), went to do what they planned to do with the "prepared spices" of FRIDAY AFTERNOON. The angels tell them to think over what Jesus had told them.
e) After having reflected, the three (main characters) "EARLY, AT THE RISING OF THE SUN", returned to ascertain. They believe not THE (ONE) angel's report, and flee in horror of fact and fiction --- maybe the Lord would meet Peter in his death in Galilee. "They TOLD NOBODY!" This is Mark, abruptly ending his story. John continues though ...
f) " ... BUT MARY STAYED STANDING AT THE GRAVE ...", when the Lord "appeared to (her) first, early on the First Day of the week" (Mark). It was the hour of day the gardener should have started work (John).
g) The other women who had left before this, most probably accompanied by others, went back to the tomb once more, where the angel "explaining to them" the Resurrection in detail, and they understood, and with great "fearing joy", immediately believing obeyed and went to Jerusalem to tell the disciples. It was now that Jesus appeared to them on their way.
Mary was not present, for it could not be recorded for truth that Jesus appeared to her "FIRST" - that is, only - if other women witnessed the same appearance.
Seven visits to the tomb (besides the mens'); two appearances; one Resurrection "In the Sabbath's being fulness of daylight". The Resurrection is mentioned in time-sequence first of all; in order of textual context, last.
Improvement: ... The Resurrection is mentioned in time-sequence first of all; in order of textual, CIRCUMSTANTIAL, context, last.
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:Thank you, Le Buick, it is encouraging. Helping me not to feel immensely foolish. People think I like to go upstream, or stir or rock the boat only to fall out myself. It's not easy.
But to see a bit more of truth, is rewarding; to see Jesus Christ in the plan of God's love offers satisfaction beyond imagination. I am glad. I revel in the Scriptures. It is my prize; I receive it with humbleness of heart and great joy.
Sorry, my attempt at humor offended my Brother. I knew what you meant but your wording of facts was slightly off. Sorry to put it that way and I can no longer edit my post.
My Dad showed me as a young boy that you will see a couple of black letters even in the midst of lots of red letters. The moral was there is divine inspiration through out the Bible.
Now let's get to the point of all this:
If the women made several visits to the tomb during Saturday night, at or during no one of them Jesus rose from the grave. In terms of time, from after sunset to after sunrise, at no point did Jesus rise, but at every point the indication is He had risen before. The point in time of Jesus' resurrection is explicitly identified: "In Sabbath's-time fulness of daylight". The point in time of His appearance "to Mary first", is explicitly identified, "early on the First Day of the week".
These facts are of primary importance for the Christian Church and Faith as far as Sunday versus Sabbath observance is concerned. Do we the Body of Christ follow Him in His Word and Leadership through death and resurrection, or do we PRACTICE, false, heathen and antichrist, idolatrous, dogma and tradition? It is a question we not only every week is confronted with, but an answer, we constantly with corban, week by week, OFFER in the nose of God.
You, don't decide; God has decided, from the beginning -- through and in Jesus Christ.
If the women made several visits to the tomb during Saturday night, at or during no one of them Jesus rose from the grave. In terms of time, from after sunset to after sunrise, at no point did Jesus rise, but at every point the indication is He had risen before. The point in time of Jesus' resurrection is explicitly identified: "In Sabbath's-time fulness of daylight". The point in time of His appearance "to Mary first", is explicitly identified, "early on the First Day of the week".
These facts are of primary importance for the Christian Church and Faith as far as Sunday versus Sabbath observance is concerned. Do we the Body of Christ follow Him in His Word and Leadership through death and resurrection, or do we PRACTICE, false, heathen and antichrist, idolatrous, dogma and tradition? It is a question we not only every week is confronted with, but an answer, we constantly with corban, week by week, OFFER in the nose of God.
You, don't decide; God has decided, from the beginning -- through and in Jesus Christ.
tragic_pizza
New Member
You really are making no sense whatsoever.