Only 2 Ages? Or 7? Dispensationalism's walls melt away.

Dear Friends,

As evangelicals we have all been indoctrinated. We have had some some wonderful scriptural truths hammered into us such as
1. the all sufficiency of the blood of Christ to save,
2. salvation by grace through faith,
3. the priesthood of all believers etc..

All these are firmly established in holy scripture. Some of our indoctrinations, however, we discover is not so well established on the teachings of the Bible. One of these is the "seven dispensations" of Clarence Larkin.
In the past we could let these steel compartments chop up the people of God locking them up in manmade, Hellenised, Vaticanised, Masonic style rooms as it were and not have any problems with it. But now things are changing. This dispensationalist doctrine is now beginning to become a huge problem when we try to sort out what God is doing and will do in the church and in Israel in the endtime and beyond. Does the so called "Age of Grace" and so called "Church Age" extend just from Pentecost to the beginning of the 70th week? Did God have a church/congregation/ekklesia/called out company in old testament times? Of course He did! Will He have a church during the Tribulation? Of course He will! Does God have two people's, two elects, two congregation/churches of YHVH/God? Of course not?

As we can see, we have some serious problems with this dispensationalist doctrine. Yet this 7 box dispensationalism is still the mindset of most evangelicals. This manmade dispensationalist doctrine of Larkin copied by Darby and Scofield is failing us badly as we seek to base our understanding on the simple faithful Berean interpretation of scripture. It is time to hold fast to that which is good and to reject those things that do not square with scripture.

So what DOES the Bible teach as far as dispensations are concerned? Just how many ages are there really?

If we search the scriptures we discover that the Bible and indeed Jesus Himself only spoke of two ages,
those two ages being "this age" and "the age to come".

Here is an article in powerpoint by a friend of mine, Richard Perry.
http://lastdaysmystery.info/Power%20Point/Age%20to%20Come/Age%20to%20Come.PPT

Blessings to all,

Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org

 

PRIMITIVE BAPTIST>>>
The Rabbis divided time into two ages, the Mosaic Age and the Messianic Age.

GAVIN>>> Let's forget what the old rabbis said. Rabbi Jesus was the most important. Jesus divided time into "this age" and "the age to come".-Mat.12:32 He was talking about an age beyond His age. (and our age) This age, this generation, is evil to the core. This present age is no Millennium of peace under Messiah! We are are living in a wicked evil twisted age. Even now we are at war.

The age to come, on the other hand will be an peaceful age when the devil is chained for a thousand years so that He will not deceive the nations. -Rev.20:1-3 It should be quite plain for all to see that we have not yet arrived at this idyllic time. Not by a long shot. And wicked rebellious man doesn't want Messiah to come either. Evildoers don't want to hear of any such thing! Never have. Never will.
http://endtimepilgrim.org/millennium.htm
This thousand year age is called the Millennium from the many mentions of "one thousand years" it gets in Rev. 20:2-7

You say we are now in the "messianic age". Where on this planet is He ruling? Yes, He is ruling in the hearts of His people. But where ON THE PLANET is He ruling?

I'm sorry Glen. An existentialist's Messiah just will not cut it. The Millennium of Messiah will be real and literal. The Millennium of Messiah is not just a rabbi's reverie. A churchy "religious" stained glass Millennium just won't fit the bill. Messiah means High priest! Messiah means King! Messiah will "reign upon the earth".

As the scriptures say,
"Behold the days come saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a Righteous Branch and KING shall REIGN and prosper, and shall execute JUDGEMENT and JUSTICE IN THE EARTH." -Jer.23:5

Blessinga to the Bereans,

Gavin
http://endtimepilgrim.org

 

ER>>>During the Millenial kingdom will the church exist as it does today or will Jesus rule with a rod of iron?

GAVIN>>Psalm 2 shows Messiah kicking some rear ends when He comes to rule. Blatant in your face rebellion such as we have today will not be tolerated.

ER>>>Also will the sacrifices also be restored at that time?

GAVIN>> Yes. The sacrifices will remain in the Millennial Temple worship as a memorial to the Sacrifice Lamb. The nations will go up to Jerusalem for the feasts. -Zech. 14:16-18

ER>>It has been my understanding that preceding the 1000 yrs kingdom the Bride will be taken out

GAVIN>> Yes. The bride of this age will be glorified and enter into the Millennial service in spiritual bodies just like Jesus had when He ministerd to the disciples on the Emmaus road. He will also take out a people in the age to come. All the saints, all the elect, will enter into the eternal realms and celebrate the Marriage supper of the Lamb together, even though they came into eternity through different time vortices.

ER>>> and it will be a time when Jesus will deal with Israel, maybe even offer them the same kingdom offered in the Gospels,what say ye?

GAVIN>>> Yes, there has only ever been one Sacrifice Lamb by whose precious blood men are saved and only one eternal everlasting covenant and only one eternal everlasting Kingdom.
The Jewish nation must be saved and will be saved to enter into the Kingdom of Messiah. -Zech 12:7-13:1 And we are grafted into Israel. -Rom.11, Eph 2:12-13, Gal.3:29

One big happy family will be delivered to the Father at the end when death has been defeated and is cast into the lake of fire ate the end of the thousand years. -1Cor. 15:20-24

 

GAVIN>>>Did God have a church/congregation/ekklesia/called out company in old testament times? Of course He did!

PASTOR LARRY>> Notice how you so freely mix terms that Scripture does not mix.

GAVIN>>> Was not the word "church" deliberately translated by William Tyndale as "congregation"? And did not God have a congregation or church even as far back as Moses? Does not the scripture speak of the church in the wilderness?-Acts 7:38

PASTOR LARRY>>>He certainly had a group of people in the OT. But no one disputes that. The question is, do they meet the biblical description of "The Church"?

GAVIN>>> The answer is clearly "yes". The word "church" in the Greek is "ekklesia" meaning "called out". That is all the word "church" or "congregation" or "assembly" means. Nothing more than that. No matter how much holy water you sprinkle on the word "church" it is still a "called out company" which is not special to the years 32 A.D. to the beginning of the 70th week.

PASTOR LARRY>>> The answer is unequivocally no. They were not gathered under the headship of Christ.

GAVIN>> All the saints that ever lived or ever will must be saved by grace through faith in the promised Sacrifice Lamb. We had it easier since Jesus was revealed 2,000 years ago. That does not make us better than the saints saved in OT times who had less light to see Him in than we do.

PASTOR LARRY>> They were not made of all nations without distinction on equal standing.

GAVIN>>> Yes they were. Remember Ruth?

PASTOR LARRY>> They were not Spirit baptized.

GAVIN>>> My Sunday school teacher did his thesis on the Holy Spirit in the Old Teatament. His conclusion? There is no evidence whatsoever to support the oft-repeated notion that the Holy Spirit coming on or in the Old Testament saints was different qualitatively or quantitatively from the Holy Spirit coming on or in the saints in New Testament times.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptised into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, ......and have been all made to drink into the one Spirit." - 1Cor. 12:13

PASTOR LARRY>>> These characteristics preclude the OT believers from being the NT church.

GAVIN>>> I respectfully disagree. I believe we shall all sit together along with the trib saints (we may yet be those saints!) and the Millennial saints. 1Cor. 15 wraps us all up together in one big happy family.
And there is just one train to Zion. http://endtimepilgrim.org/raptrain1.htm

GAVIN>>>Will He have a church during the Tribulation? Of course He will!

PASTOR LARRY>>> And on what scriptural basis do you say "Of course he will"? I notice you didn't give any Scripture to support this "church during the tribulation." Why?

GAVIN>>> I'm sorry. An assertion without scripture is worthless. So here we go.
Here in the scripture passage below is the tribulation church. These dear saints, tested tried and true come from from all nations. They are blood washed in the blood of the Lamb.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!" 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?" 14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

 

Amen! I'm with Pastor Larry on this one. Congratulations to you for taking on preterists and post-tribbers.

Gnosticism is at work here among those who deny the future Millennium of Messiah will be on earth in times to come. Gnostic sentiment has always been that this earth is and will continue to be evil and sin cursed. But this is a lie. God's Kingdom will come and change that. This poor creation will get a reprieve on that glorious Day when Messiah come to set up His earthly footstool they way HE ordains instead of the way the current world system, the flesh and the Devil says it should be.

 

PASTOR LARRY>>> You argue from what Tyndale said. Tyndale and his translation are not inspired.

GAVIN>>> That is exactly what Cardinal Wolsey said about Tyndale's translation of the New Testament as it was being smggled into England in sacks of grain in the early 1500's. The established church including the Bishop of London and Wolsey were furious about Tyndale's translation of the word "ekklesia" as "congregation" rather than "church". That, among other reasons, is why they wanted Tyndale captured and burned at the stake. This is what eventually happened to William Tyndale, a faithful scholar and a devoted evangelical. See the video from visionvideo.com at http://www.visionvideo.com/vv/home.asp?l=item&i=298&bhcd2=1048214643

PASTOR LARRY>>> Pretend the word “church” is the word “agheip.” (I made it up to get rid of the connotation.) Now look at the Bible and tell us what the Scripture says about it.

GAVIN>>> As a Baptist devoted to the principle of "sol scriptura", (the scriptures alone), it is my practice to seek the real meaning of a given word in the New Testament by going back to the Greek. That word for "church" is "ekklesia". In the grammatical historic sense it meant "called out" or "assembly" or "congregation". To the ones hearing the word in the first century it meant the congregation, the people of God. Pentecost took the same company and saw it then spill over into the gentile nations. The word "ekklesia" means precisely the same today as it did then. It means God's called out people. They are similarly saved by grace through faith in the promised Sacrifice Lamb. The NT congregation, now including gentiles, knew this Sacrifice Lamb as Jesus Christ.

William Tyndale was a fine scholar and a faithful brother of ours. He translated the word "ekklesia' as "congregation" thus avoiding all the nasty churchy connotations of the word "church". For this travesty against the established church Tyndale was hunted down like an animal, betrayed by a mole sent into Europe by the Bishop of London. They captured him and had him garroted and burned at the stake. This vicious piece of work was not done by pagans or Turks or "secular humanists". It was done by the English establishment church. What was William Tyndale's crime? He was burned at the stake by the church for translating the scriptures faithfully. We would be wise to follow along with the work he laid out for us in simple Berean fashion. It would also be well for us to remember that the church in the first century was Jewish.

PASTOR LARRY>>> You are hung up on “church in the OT” because of your presupposition that the OT believers must be in the same body as the NT believers. YET Scripture never says that, not one time.

GAVIN>>> This is not a "hang-up". The Holy Spirit through Dr. Luke spoke of the congregation of Moses, the people of God 3500 years ago as the "church in the wilderness". Here below is our scripture.

Acts 7:36
He brought them out, after that he had shewed wonders and signs in the land of Egypt, and in the Red sea, and in the wilderness forty years.
7:37
This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
7:38
This is he, that was in the CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
7:39
To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,


PASTOR LARRY>> God had a congregation in the OT. It was different than the NT church, according to the description of Scripture.

GAVIN>>> There is no doubt you are right, Brother Larry. The New Testament congregation included gentiles more and more as the years went by. Yes these were different people. But they were in covenant with the same God. Soon these ingrafted branches would outnumber the Hebrew branches. God gave us a warning in Romans 11 against haughty gentiles rising up to "boast against" the original Hebrew branches. Yet this is precisely what has happened. WHo is the true congregation of God? The Hebrew branches? The ingrafted Gentile branches? The scriptures are warning us not to reject each other. BOTH are the Olive tree. BOTH are the elect chosen people. BOTH are the church/congregation/ekklesia of God. BOTH are Israel. -Eph.2:12-13, Rom.11

To deny this is to "boast against" the other branches.


PASTOR LARRY>>> Again, study the NT and see how the church is described and then compare it with the OT. You will see a clear difference if you look at it honestly and objectively.

GAVIN>>> Again, I agree there are differences in the age of the gentile congregation or church or age of gospel outreach to the nations compared to the way God dealt with His people collectively in the Old testament times in the nation of Israel. But the devotion and the personal calling was always the same. See King David in Psalm 51. Is the way He relates to His Saviour any different than a sinning Christian coming back to God today? Do we have the "key of David" in the church today? I hope we do have that same heart attitude towards God. Saints of all ages love and seek to know and obey the same God. The church's God is also the God of Israel. And when we were saved the divine "Seed of heaven" that came into our hearts was indeed the "Seed of Abraham".- Gal.3:29

PASTOR LARRY>>> The problem is that too many people bring their suppositions to the text and cannot get away from them. So they read the text in light of their presupposition without allowing those presuppositions to be adjusted by the text. I am not comfortable doing that.

GAVIN>>> I agree. That is why we must go with the Greek text in its grammatically correct and historically understood interpretation. The word "church" is loaded with baggage collected from 2,000 years of church-state dalliances. That word "church" has been tainted with incorrect meaning due to a whole littany of unfortunate racial antisemitic and Romish connotations. William Tyndale was absolutely right. It would be best if the word "church" was studiously avoided and not used by Christians at all. They would do better to scratch out the word "church" from their Bibles and use the word "assembly" or "congregation" for that word "ekklesia" in the New Testament. This would be very helpful as they seek to understand what the scriptures are telling us about the confluence of all of God's elect both in Israel and among the Gentiles in the endtime drama.

 

ER>>> Bro Gavin, During the mellennium, (although the individual is dealt with), don't you think God is again dealing more with the nations?

GAVIN>>> Yes, you are precisely correct. He will. We see His dealings with the nations at His coming in Mat.25:31-46. This is the sheep-goat judgement.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the NATIONS will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.' 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.' 41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

ER>>> It seems to me that during the NT God is calling out individuals from the nations to form the bride of His Son.

GAVIN>>> Again, you are right on target. That was what Pentecost was all about. -Acts 2 The Gospel and the infilling of the Holy Spirit overflowed the Hebrew riverbanks and flowed out across to the gentiles in the nations.


ER>>>> In the OT it seems to me God was asking the nation of Israel to win the world, which they refused to do.

GAVIN>>> Yes, the rabbinical priesthood which began during the exile in Babylon had begun to set up a legalistic religious system. It caused the nation of Israel to forget the personal heart devotion that is foundational to the true faith. That was the problem of the Pharisees.

ER>>> When He came,not only had they failed in their task but led the revolt against Him.

GAVIN>>> Yes. But remember it was a Roman governor, Pontius Pilate that delivered Jesus illegally into the hands of a humanistic mob.

ER>>> At that point He set them aside (to be dealt with at a later time)and began calling out individuals from the nations.

GAVIN>>> Quite so. That was in the divine purpose of God. The kingdom of Christ, Israel, would wait until the priesthood of Christ, the church, had finished the work of evangelising the gentiles.
"Blindness in part is happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." -Rom. 11:25

ER>>> I realize the Bible says that Abraham believed and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Simple faith in Jesus always was and always will be the way to eternal life with God. OT looked forward to the cross and believed , NT looks back to the same cross.

GAVIN>>> Spot on.

ER>>> During the OT The Holy Spirit came on people by times and left people as God directed Him. In the NT Jesus said to believers I will never leave thee nor forsake thee,and gave the HS to draw,enlighten and indwell them.

GAVIN>>> Right on.

ER>>> Isn't it a fact that during the 1000 yr kingdom Jesus with the help of the Bride will rule and the HS removed?

GAVIN>>> The Holy Spirit is essential for hearts to turn to God. The Bible says that no man can say that "Jesus is Lord" but by the Holy Spirit. - 1Cor. 12:3 The Psalmist says "whither shall I go to escape your spirit?" -Psalm 139:7-12 This inescapeable presence of the Holy Spirit for seeking souls will surely be the case in the Millennium as it is today. I am not aware of any scripture stating that the Holy Spirit will desert His ministry to the saints either in this age or the age to come. We know that saints will be saved in huge numbers during the Tribulation. -Rev. 7:9-17 So it stands to reason that the Holy Spirit must be here during the trib and also during the Millennium of Messiah to follow. Contrary to what we have been told the Holy Spirit is not the "restrainer" who is taken out of the way to allow the antichrist to be revealed. -2Thes 2. He is someone else. -Dan.10:21 See http://endtimepilgrim.org/restrainer.htm