1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Origin of an article of faith

Discussion in 'Baptist History' started by rlvaughn, Oct 24, 2020.

Top Posters
Page 1 of 2
  1. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hoping someone might know of or be able to help locate an unique point of origin of an article of faith, particularly a sentence in it. I recently ran across a church with this statement on the Bible:

    "We believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the verbally and plenary inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are inerrant, infallible and God-breathed and, therefore, are the final authority for faith and life. The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testament are the complete and divine revelation of God to Man. The Scriptures shall be interpreted according to their normal grammatical-historical meaning, and all issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor. We believe that God has preserved His Word for the English-speaking people only in the King James Bible. The King James Bible shall be the official and only translation used by the church and accepted as the final authority on all matters of faith and practice. (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21)"

    I am especially interested in the bolded sentence, and especially the last half -- "all issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor." In a Google search I found this second clause in quite a few church statements of faith. I only found it in one institution of higher learning (at least so far) -- Tampa Theological Institute & Tri-State Seminary, formerly Suwannee River Bible College of Live Oak, Florida. I have never heard of this seminary and would question whether it has enough influence to be what connects the churches that choose to add that clause to their statement of faith.

    [Note: If at all possible, I hope you can restrain yourselves from going off on a KJVO tangent, and address the specific question.]

    Thanks!
     
    #1 rlvaughn, Oct 24, 2020
  2. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps the statement that you put in bold is more likely to be found in statements of faith for KJV-only churches. While Baptists long held to congregational church government, some or many KJV-only pastors seem to advocate or practice a form of episcopal church government. There was a bias for episcopal church government involved in the making of the KJV so that the KJV could be considered more favorable to this statement than the pre-1611 English Bibles or post-1611 English Bibles are. It seems to be typical for KJV-only pastors to emphasize pastoral authority. Even though the KJV does teach that a pastor/bishop/elder is not the "lord" over a congregation (1 Pet. 5:3) some pastors seem to act in practice as though they are.

    There may also be some non-KJV-only Baptist pastors who would seek to put such a statement in their church's statement of faith. I know of non-KJV-only Baptist pastors who also seem to want to avoid having any church business meetings and congregation votes.

    In some cases pastors have had bad experiences in church business meetings or with church splits so they may assume that this statement is a way to try to avoid them.
     
    #2 Logos1560, Oct 24, 2020
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2003
    Messages:
    38,981
    Likes Received:
    2,616
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Only the pastor can interpret the Scriptures?

    Two of our Baptist Distinctive are?

    1) Priesthood of the Believer
    2) Individual Soul liberty

    Those two items would negate the "power of the pastor"

    I was a member of church once - where at a business meeting we were to elect a deacon,
    but the pastor stated that our Constitution did not mention deacons- so we should not vote on one.
    IMHO I could not care less as to what the Constitution says -because the Bible takes priority over
    any Constitution on any day that ends in "Y" I would have said something, but Mrs Salty and I were
    leaving for another church in a couple of weeks. What surprised me was that no one else spoke up.
    (I can understand why the Deacon-nominee did not say anything)

    So that sounds like total pastor control

    In the church I pastor, a member told me that anything I say - goes
    I told - NO! Lets compare, what I say to Scripture.


    PS - FTR - that church was NOT KJO
    but later, I was informed he had problems with deacons in the past.
     
    #3 Salty, Oct 25, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Sometimes local independent Baptist churches will copy or model their statements of faith after that of another independent Baptist church. There is likely a common source for it, but I have not found it.

    I checked Jack Hyles' 1968 Church Manual, but I found no mention of a statement of faith or of that statement in it. Back then at least, Hyles seemed to favor congregational church government. However, he did seem already to advocate total loyalty to the pastor from church staff. Perhaps that concept of total loyalty to the pastor required of the church staff could possibly later develop into a view that advocates total loyalty to the pastor from the entire congregation.
     
    #4 Logos1560, Oct 25, 2020
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I had never head of that seminary either.

    One of the fundamental colleges or seminaries could still be the source of this statement even if it is not in their doctrinal statements. One possibility would be whether in a class about church planting or about the doctrine of the church whether the teacher may have given out a sample or model church constitution and by-laws to his students.
     
    #5 Logos1560, Oct 25, 2020
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    17,825
    Likes Received:
    1,363
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I would never join any church with that in their statement of faith.

    1 John 2:27, "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."
     
    #6 37818, Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Have you not read?

    Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and asked their pastor daily, whether those things were so. PDV (Pastoral Dictator Version of the Holy Scriptures)

    :eek:
     
    #7 rlvaughn, Oct 25, 2020
    • Funny Funny x 2
  8. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I do not find this mentality to be a particularly KJVO issue. In my experience (others' experiences may vary), this crops up on the fundamentalism end of the spectrum rather than the liberal. (They have their own problems, of course.) However, all the statements I looked at with this specific sentence in them were KJVO.

    Yes, I am sure much of these are copied from one church to another, and they likely have a common source. I had not thought of Church Manuals, but I don't think I am aware of any that are independent fundamentalist. I did not even know Hyles had one.
    Another thing to consider. Thanks. Perhaps one teacher or writer who is influential is used as a source in several institutions.
     
    #8 rlvaughn, Oct 25, 2020
  9. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Found a similar one that is a Southern Baptist Church in Michigan, sorta KJV:
    "This body recognizes and affirms the Holy Bible as its only guide and authority in matters relating to faith and practice. While we recognize the value of other translations of the Bible, for the purpose of rule and order, the King James Version shall be used as the guide. We believe the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the verbally and plenarily inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are inerrant, infallible and God-breathed and are, therefore, the final authority for faith and life. The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments are the complete and divine revelation of God to man. The Scriptures shall be interpreted according to their normal grammatical-historical meaning, and issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor."

    And not KJVO:
    "We believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be the verbally and plenary inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are inerrant, infallible and God-breathed, and therefore are the final authority for faith and life. The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testament are the complete and divine revelation of God to Man. The Scriptures shall be interpreted according to their literal, grammatical, historical, and contextual meaning, and all issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor. We further believe that God gave the Words of Scripture by inspiration without error in the original autographs, and that He has promised to preserve His Words. (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Peter 1:20-21; Matt. 5:18)"
     
    #9 rlvaughn, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2004
    Messages:
    6,602
    Likes Received:
    464
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Another possibility to check as a possible common source of this statement could be the Christian Law Association or Attorney David Gibbs. I know that the CLA has provided guidance to many fundamental churches about their statement of faith and bylaws (especially in relationship to marriage in recent years) and it may have provided model statements of faith that churches could follow in making changes to their own. I wonder if a lawyer might have suggested this statement as a way to try to avoid lawsuits.
     
    #10 Logos1560, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  11. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's a thought. I sent CLA a message inquiring about model statements of faith. Thanks.
     
    #11 rlvaughn, Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2006
    Messages:
    9,838
    Likes Received:
    702
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What does that even mean?

    The pastor determines all issues of interpretation and meaning?

    Huh?

    I don't think that's the proper word for what they're getting at.
     
    #12 Jerome, Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  13. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Don't know if it is the right word, but I believe what they are getting at is that whatever the pastor says goes. If you think Romans chapter whatever verse whatever means X and the pastor thinks it means Y, then obviously it means Y. At least that seems to be the way it works at the church where I first noticed such an article of faith.
     
    #13 rlvaughn, Oct 25, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    CLA sent me a copy of The Fundamentals of Church Bylaws. Looks like you nailed it! Thanks.

    In the "Statement of Faith and Covenant" (p. 24) in "Sample Bylaws for Incorporated Churches," they have the following statement on the Scriptures:
    "The Holy Scriptures. We believe the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the verbally and plenarily inspired Word of God. The Scriptures are inerrant, infallible and Godbreathed and are, therefore, the final authority for faith and life. The sixty-six books of the Old and New Testaments are the complete and divine revelation of God to Man. The Scriptures shall be interpreted according to their normal grammatical-historical meaning, and all issues of interpretation and meaning shall be determined by the pastor. The King James Version of the Bible shall be the official and only translation used by the church. (2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21)"

    The edition I received is copyrighted 2020 by Gibbs & Associates Law Firm, but I expect the general material is much older than that.
     
    #14 rlvaughn, Oct 26, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That seems VERY non Baptist, almost cultic!
     
    #15 Yeshua1, Oct 27, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Seems like how a cult is set up, as in let the pastor have final say, like an Ellen White or a Joseph Smith!
     
    #16 Yeshua1, Oct 27, 2020
  17. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2001
    Messages:
    10,544
    Likes Received:
    1,558
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wonder if some churches are not alert to what is said, or maybe think it is good legal advice since it comes from the Christian Law Association? I don't agree with it from a biblical standpoint, and also wonder whether it actually could cause legal problems for a church that really doesn't understand what they have agreed to.
     
    #17 rlvaughn, Oct 27, 2020
  18. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The pastor is a member of the church body and subject to the members.

    Nice try, 'pastor'.
     
    #18 Alan Gross, Nov 7, 2020
  19. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The body can believe what they want, but what they are saying here is not in 2 Tim. 3:16-17; 2 Pet. 1:20-21.
     
    #19 Alan Gross, Nov 7, 2020
  20. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,632
    Likes Received:
    461
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Although, I see what they are 'trying' to say, like, "You called me; listen to me, man", but....you're right.

    Needs to be plainly thought out more, same as "we use KJV only" AND why they think that, or should think more than that, etc.
     
    #20 Alan Gross, Nov 7, 2020
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 2
Loading...