Original Sin vs. Calvinistic Total Depravity

[Brother Bob]

Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

Isa 1:17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Isa 1:18 ¶ Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Job 28:28And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.

I wonder how a sermon from the Old Regular Baptist would go over on this board. We preach that God saves you from your sins, not in them. Meaning you must cease to do evil and learn to do good.

For some reason we believe this scripture:

Isa 55:7Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

What has amazed me on this board is that it seems a man can not even quit adultery, stealing or anything without first being born again. It seems most think that man is stuck in the mud and can't even live a good moral life, without first being born again. I have many good moral neighbors, who have not yet given their lives over to the Lord, and if they die that way, their home will be the same as the drunkards because of unbelief and not confessing the Lord.

There are many "unsaved", that I would trust around my family, more that some of the "so called saved", being all these "so called preachers" who are adulterers, pedophilers, etc.

BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: What does Romans 5:12 teach:

Romans 5:12 1. One man sinned, and that man was Adam.

HP: I fully agree.

DHK: 2. By that one man, Adam, sin entered into the world.

HP: In the sense that we are speaking of the human race entering into the sin business in this world, I agree.

DHK: 3. Not only did sin enter the world because of Adam, but also death entered into the world.

HP: I fully agree. Physical death was a physical consequence of sin, and as physical descendants we inherit that fallen physical nature.

DHK:4. Death passed upon all men, because of Adam.

HP: This passage does not state it in that way at all. It sayes that ‘because all have sinned,’ death passed upon all men, again, NOT because of Adam’s sin directly but rather because of our own sin.

DHK: 5. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23)

HP: Physical death is not nor can it be the penalty for sin. It is indeed a consequence of sin, but it is not the penalty of sin. Eternal separation from God is the penalty for sin. 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

DHK: 6. Sin was passed down by Adam.

HP: The Scriptures do NOT state or imply this in the least. That is a presupposition you consistently insert into the text.

DHK: The consequence of sin is death. If sin was not passed down there would be no death. Use a little logic here. Sin results in death.

HP: Indeed you say it correct here. Physical death is a consequence but not the penalty of sin. Yes, death would be passed down, and for the reason God told us in His Word, “for ALL have sinned.”

DHK: James 1:15 -We have wrongful desires because of the sin nature that is passed down to us. That results in sin. The consequence of sin is death. This theme is taught all throughout the Bible.

HP: Here again I agree with you in that we do have desires that I would as well denote as a proclivity to sin, or an occasion to sin, or as temptation to sin, but read James again. Sin is NOT conceived until we yield our wills to those influences coming to us from the proclivity of the sensibilities. You have us as sinners by nature, antecedent to any choice. James tells us otherwise in the passage you quote. Sin is subsequent to any influence to sin, and does not exist until the will forms its intent to act in one with that evil and selfish influence.

DHK: There are two reasons why we sin:
1. We are prone to sin because we have a sin nature--a propensity to sin.
2. We sin because we choose to sin.

HP: Why did Satan and the fallen angels sin? Why did the first parents sin? Did it take a sin nature for them to sin? There is an element of mystery as to why any sin. If sin is the necessitated results of our nature, as I understand you most often to imply, man has no choice in the matter. Choice is only possible in an environment that allows for two or more possible consequents for a given antecedent. If the antecedent is our nature we are born in, and sin is the only possible consequent, choice is a logical impossibility.

DHK: Every man is a sinner (Romans 3:23), and thus under the condemnation of God.

HP: In our dispensation, I completely agree. All men everywhere are NOW commanded to repent.
Quote:

DHK: For he that hath ears let him hear.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
--The Psalmist speaks of the sin nature. It is there as soon as the infant is born. He comes forth speaking lies.

HP: Upon this text I remark: Ps 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.
11 So that a man shall say, Verily there is a reward for the righteous: verily he is a God that judgeth in the earth.

In this text David is setting up a comparison between those he sees as wicked andf the righteous, one of whom he obviously considers himself. Thios text dfoe NOT support universal constitutional depravity or original sin in the least, and it is wrong to set it up as a proof text for that position.

I have said it before and I will state it again, David was a Jew. The Jews did not teach original sin nor was there any place in their theology for such a notion. This is noted clearly by the notable historian on Jewish antiquity, Alfred Edersheim in his book, ‘The Life and Times of Jesus Christ the Messiah.” He is not alone in this assessment of Jewish theology.

DHK: Psalms 51:5 --David is not speaking of his mother; he is speaking of himself and his own sin nature that he was born with.

HP: In this Psalm over all he was speaking of his own sin, yet in the verse you quote he was indeed speaking op fthe sin of his mother, in that when he was conceived, he was indeed conceived in what would have been considered sexual immorality by the Jew. There is much support for this point, but I have posted it several times and will not go over it in detail unless someone asks at this time.

DHK: Jeremiah 13:23

HP: Pray tell me how you can interpret ‘accustomed to do evil’ with constitutional depravity from birth, or that all men are born with a sin nature, or original sin, or born morally depraved? It is simply not in the text. It is again clearly wrong to try and make this verse or the others mention walk on all four legs for the false dogma of constitutional depravity known as Original sin.

DHK: All "men" have choice to choose or reject Christ. Men as in mankind, and to have choice meaning the ability to choose which excludes infants.

HP: Your statement was that men ‘always’ have the choice to accept the gospel. I am trying to get you to see that if they do not have the ability as a child, such ability must be developed or granted at some future time. If that is true, your remark is either in error or you need to tell us at what time in their life does this ability to respond and choose the gospel come? It also shows that you believe that such ability is not natural to man, but God has to at some point in time enable this sinfully constituted man you describe that ability. Again, men cannot ‘always have this ability, as if it is part and parcel to their nature, but have to gain or be granted this ability sometime later in life. Can you tell us when this ability is gained and of what does it consist of? Does God have to grant sinful man a gracious ability to respond to the message of salvation, without which he would simply remain the necessitated sinner you say he is from birth? If in fact God has to grant to man the ability of choice, it would seem logical to assume that no choice is possible until God enables a person with the abilities to respond sometime later in life which would again be at antipodes with your first remark that they ‘always’ have that ability, would it not?


You say now that infants do not have the ability to respond, so it must come from somewhere at sometime. Certainly the ability to do good cannot drop out of a tree or be the product of man necessitated to evil and that continually, now can it? There must be a time and a source. Who grants it to man and when?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob, When we can say from the pulpit in one breath that we are necessitated as sinners from birth due to a sinful nature, and suggest that God holds man accountable for doing nothing other than what his nature necessities him to be, and then tell men that they are not forced to sin and that in reality they have a choice always to do right, is it any wonder we cannot understand our moral obligation to God as believers?

We need to start thinking right about religion again.

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Bob, When we can say from the pulpit in one breath that we are necessitated as sinners from birth due to a sinful nature, and suggest that God holds man accountable for doing nothing other than what his nature necessities him to be, and then tell men that they are not forced to sin and that in reality they have a choice always to do right, is it any wonder we cannot understand our moral obligation to God as believers?

We need to start thinking right about religion again.

I in no way said anything like what you said. I said that man is born without sin, but comes to an age that the Law enters that man and teaches him that he is a sinner because, now God is going to hold him accountable for all the wrongs he ever did. He was not held accountable, before the Law entered, therefore there was no sin, but when the Law did enter that man, it taught him, not that he was going to be a sinner, but that he already is, and is in need of a Saviour. If he dies before that age of knowledge, then there is no sin to get forgiven, but still needs a Saviour for deliverance a corruptble man to an incorruptle man, or he would just die and that would be the end of him.

If you do not believe a man can stop being an adultereous, then we differ, for I believe he can. I still do not believe that man can save himself, because of all the sins he did commit and needs the blood of Christ to cleanse him from those sins.

If you do not believe a man can live a moral life, then we differ, for I believe he can, but still in sin from unbelief, and what the law had taught him, where he had sinned. That does not mean he can't stop trangressing the Law.

I find the scripture teaches that a man is a sinner, if of age and knowledge, and must quit transgressing the Law, and turn to the Lord. I don't believe a man can continue in an adultereous act and be saved at the same time.

From what I find being taught on this board is that a man can't do nothing, he can't stop adultery, he can't stop killing, he can't stop worshipping idols, until he is "born again" of which I reject.
BBob,

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: I in no way said anything like what you said. I said that man is born without sin, but comes to an age that the Law enters that man and teaches him that he is a sinner because not God is going to hold him accountable for all the wrongs he ever did. He was not held accountable before the Law entered, therefore there was no sin, but when the Law did enter that man, it taught him, not that he was going to be a sinner, but that he already is and is in need of a Saviour. If he dies before that age of knowledge, then there is no sin to get forgiven, but still needs a Saviour for deliverance a corruptble man to an incorruptle man, or he would just die and that would be the end of him.

HP: Please forgive me. I was simply making a statement of the confusing notions I have encountered on this list, you NOT being the source. I appreciate your stand against sin and you insistence upon living a holy walk with God.

Brother Bob: If you do not believe a man can stop being an adultereous, then we differ, for I believe he can. I still do not believe that man can save himself, because of all the sins he did commit and needs the blood of Christ to cleanse him from those sins.

HP: Amen. Yes we can live a life free from sin in the power of the Holy Spirit, not in our own strength. Paul said, “It is no longer I live, but Christ that liveth within me.” That should be our hearts cry to walk such a walk with the Lord. I indeed believe not only that we can live without committing adultery, but that it is obligation as a believer to do so. The same goes for any and all sin.

Brother Bob: I find the scripture teaches that a man is a sinner, if of age and knowledge, and must quit transgressing the Law and turn to the Lord. I don't believe a man can continue in an adultereous act and be saved at the same time.

HP: I would put it this way. No man can have a certain assurance of his final standing with God while in possession of an evil conscience due to any known sin that one has not repented and forsaken.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP: Please forgive me. I was simply making a statement of the confusing notions I have encountered on this list, you NOT being the source. I appreciate your stand against sin and you insistence upon living a holy walk with God.



HP: Amen. Yes we can live a life free from sin in the power of the Holy Spirit, not in our own strength. Paul said, “It is no longer I live, but Christ that liveth within me.” That should be our hearts cry to walk such a walk with the Lord. I indeed believe not only that we can live without committing adultery, but that it is obligation as a believer to do so. The same goes for any and all sin.




HP: I would put it this way. No man can have a certain assurance of his final standing with God while in possession of an evil conscience due to any known sin that one has not repented and forsaken.

Thanks friend......

BBob,