OSAS debunked by Ezek 18 and Matt 18??

[BobRyan]

Steaver claims that I am the ONLY poster on this board that has come out in favor of Ezek 18 and Matt 18 as texts that debunk OSAS.

Steaver -
I have NEVER witnessed another anti-OSAS poster other than yourself bring into the debate Matt 18 as an example of one who was saved and then was lost.

If you have any that I have over looked then bring them forth and I will humbly withdraw my conclusion.

I have tried to show him that this point is incredibly obvious from both MAtt 18 and and Ezek 18 and that even those who cling to OSAS should be able to see it.

He claims that I am the only one with that level of insight on Matt 18's story of "forgiveness revoked".

While I would love to accept such a high honor -- I believe I have seen a number here post in favor of Matt 18.

Let your voices be heard.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

So do you go in and out of salvation? How do you know when you are in and how do you know when you are out? I thought I'd ask.

 

[Ed Edwards]

On 4 Nov 2007 I hope to teach Matthew 18 in my Sunday
School. I will teach that this Scripture teaches the
Godly principle that Jesus saves forever (called by some
OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved, with the emphasis on

ONCE SAVED by Jesus

Can you please show HOW this scripture shows
anything other than that Jesus Salvation is Eternal?

​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Words of Jesus in red:

Mat 18:11-14 (KJV1611 Edition):

For the sonne of man is come to saue that which
was lost.
2 How thinke yee? If a man haue an hundred sheepe,
and one of them be gone astray,
doth he not leaue the ninetie and nine,
and goeth into the mountaines,
and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it,
Uerily I say vnto you, hee reioyceth more
of that sheepe, then of the ninetie and nine
which went not astray.
14 Euen so, it is not the will of your father
which is in heauen, that one of these
little ones should perish.

All good OSAS (Once Saved, Always Saved) teaching.
Recall other scriptures do tell that if you think you are
saved and then think that OSAS
gives you permission to sin -- you never got ONCE
SAVED by Jesus. So the most important Part of OSAS
is JESUS IN THE MIDDLE.

We are saved to do good works;
we are NOT saved by good works.

What a wonder blessed Savior: Messiah Jesus.
His Father (AKA: G-d) wants everybody to be saved
even to the least important person on the Earth.
He will leave 99 saved to find 1 lost. Will he then
throw that one away? Nope - If Jesus saves, then
Jesus saves permenantly - AKA: forever.

Caveat: saved people don't sin like lost people do -
if you continue to sin after salvation - it must have
been somebody besides Jesus saved you.
ONLY JESUS SAVES to the Uttermost.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

BobRyan,

If you choose to live in fear that you have to walk on eggshells or you are damned forever, go right ahead. More power to ya. Stay in bondage.

I will choose to Believe that God's Word is true. From the moment I believed, I was given eternal life...you do know what eternal means, do you not?

It certainly does not mean age ending as many want to think, else we all are doomed, for one day, this age will certainly end. Age ending makes no sense.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

He claims that I am the only one with that level of insight on Matt 18's story of "forgiveness revoked".

I certainly cannot be counted in the numbers that share your "level of insight" on this passage.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Orthodox Christianity sees salvation as a process, not a once and done event. The Orthodox Christian is “being saved”, not “already saved”.

Salvation is seen as a deliverance from the curse of sin and death, which enables us to enter into union w/ God through His Son Jesus Christ the Savior. The process of Salvation includes the growth of the whole person whereby the sinner is being transformed into the image and likeness of God. One is saved by faith through grace, although saving faith involves more than belief. Faith must be active and living, manifested by works of righteousness, whereby we cooperate with God to do His will. Therefore if one is ‘being saved’, he is own his way to the ultimate goal: eternal union with God and participation in the divine nature, as Paul writes.

Believing that you are already saved means that you absolutely and positively know where your life will lead in the future. In fact no one knows where their faith will be years from now or what event may transpire. And the cop-out answer that the individual was never saved to being with is without weight and if that’s the case then one really doesn’t know.

If one is already saved, then what need does one still have for a Savior, what more can the Savior do for you? It’s like saying that one’s been cured of cancer, but still needs chemo, or that one’s been cured of cancer and the cancer never re-surfacing years later again.

Christ says that He comes not to save the righteous, but the sinner. Christ makes the comparison to the physically ill person in need of a physician, than the one who is in perfect physical health. This is why the Orthodox Church sees herself as a hospital, where we are physically ill sinners in need of a great Physician and what Christ has given His Church in the Sacraments, along with fasting and prayer are what we need to help us persevere until the end.
-

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Again, one of the distinguishing marks of a cult is that one can not have full and present assurance of their salvation.

http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/marksof.htm

3. No Assurance of Salvation: The issue of a cult member's salvation is never settled, but is constantly affected by the changing circumstances of life; in this way, cult leaders are able to produce continued obligation and spiritual bondage, rather than spiritual freedom.


BGTF

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

Are you reffering to the passage about the servant with the unbelievable debt? Well there's a double edged sword...because what if you know a Brother who does something you find sinful *drinking, smoking, swearing, pornography, Hannah Montana,...etc.* would you still be able to forgive him for offending you over and over and over again? Though I seriously doubt that there is even a .5% margin of Christ's followers not wanting to forgive one another. That still is going on the assumption that God would ever condemn one of his children. I don't read anything in Ezekiel 18 that speaks of salvation or condemnation either....

 

[LeBuick]

So do you go in and out of salvation? How do you know when you are in and how do you know when you are out? I thought I'd ask.

I think it's warmer when he's out of salvation... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Ed Edwards: On 4 Nov 2007 I hope to teach Matthew 18 in my Sunday
School.

HP: Are we all invited to attend? Can you give us a time and place? :thumbs:

PS: To help alleviate any fears, here is a verse for you. " Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Agnus Dei: Orthodox Christianity sees salvation as a process, not a once and done event. The Orthodox Christian is “being saved”, not “already saved”.

HP: Scripture does inform us, do this and thou salt be saved. Just the same, I concur with your overall concept as I understand it. I view salvation as encompassing three, not one, areas. We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Until I stand before Him and hear those words I am to take heed lest in thinking I am standing I might fall. I have not seen my name in the Lambs Book of Life. I by faith believe it is there, but deception is a real notion. I am to examine myself to see if in fact I be of the faith.

It must be my desire and honest pursuit, to seek such a place of sanctification that I live moment by moment in humble obedience to every known desire of my Father in heaven. I believe that only as one seeks and attains such a place in this present world is ones assurance consistent and contiually bright in this present world.

For one to believe that they have a proper standing before God while in possession of an evil heart of disobedience to known commandments of God, cannot be anything short of the pinnacle of deception. God keep me from such a walk. Let me not be guilty of presuming upon your grace or committing such presumptuous sins. May the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, and the intents and actions of my life, be found pleasing to You and in accordance to that which You see as a walk of obedience!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: So do you go in and out of salvation? How do you know when you are in and how do you know when you are out? I thought I'd ask.

HP: Given the alternative, I sure like the ‘in and out and back in’ option. The other alternative seems to be to think one is something that they find out at the judgment they never where, only to hear those fateful words when it is too late to change, “Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you!”

 

[TCGreek]

HP: Given the alternative, I sure like the ‘in and out and back in’ option.

1. How do you know that you are back in. BTW, one with such view is not exempt for the saying: "Depart from me, you worker of lawlessness; I never knew you!"

The other alternative seems to be to think one is something that they find out at the judgment they never where, only to hear those fateful words when it is too late to change, “Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you!”

2. If my theology is somewhat defective in expressing this alternative, at least I know I can sleep peacefully, not wondering if I'm in tonight, but knowing rather that, I'm eternally secured in the arms of Jesus.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TCG: How do you know that you are back in. BTW, one with such view is not exempt for the saying: "Depart from me, you worker of lawlessness; I never knew you!"

HP: By the testimony of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with a clear conscience before God and my fellow man.

TCG: 2. If my theology is somewhat defective in expressing this alternative, at least I know I can sleep peacefully, not wondering if I'm in tonight, but knowing rather that, I'm eternally secured in the arms of Jesus.

HP: Does the possibility exist that what one believes is peace and security is not simply short lived deception? I am reminded of the man falling from the ten story building that they heard exclaim as he was falling past the fifth floor, “So far so good!”

I am not trying to destroy anyone’s security. It would be my hope that I might get all to examine themselves to see if in fact they are of the faith, myself included. We are to make our calling and election sure.

 

[Helen]

First, if I were responsible for maintaining my own salvation, I would be irretrievably lost. I am helpless on my own. Period.

Second, when I was born again, I was given a new nature, a new heart. Before I wanted to sin and wanted to see what I could get away with. But not after. Now I don't want to sin.

So how can a heart that does not want to sin NOT repent in full sorrow when it finds there has been sin? And if repenting, then God forgives, right? So how, ever, could a born again person walk away from their own new nature and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, who has taken charge?

The very idea is ludicrous.

But lastly, if I had to worry about my continuing salvation, then my eyes would consistently be on ME, judging myself, trying harder, examining my motives. By contrast, the very command of Jesus to love God first and my neighbor as myself command me to take my eyes OFF myself and leave myself in God's hands.

And He is quite capable of keeping me safe forever. I am His. And that's that.

 

[TCGreek]

HP: By the testimony of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with a clear conscience before God and my fellow man.

1. In your own words, "Does the possibility exist that what one believes in peace and security is not simply short lived deception? I am reminded...!"

HP: Does the possibility exist that what one believes is peace and security is not simply short lived deception? I am reminded of the man falling from the ten story building that they heard exclaim as he was falling past the fifth floor, “So far so good!”

I am not trying to destroy anyone’s security. It would be my hope that I might get all to examine themselves to see if in fact they are of the faith, myself included. We are to make our calling and election sure.

2. In your own words with some additional words: "I am not trying to destroy anyone's security in his belief that he can lose his salvation. It would be my hope that I might get all to examine themselves..."

 

[LeBuick]

“Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you!”

Is never knew you the same as "once knew you but now I don't?"

 

[TCGreek]

Is never knew you the same as "once knew you but now I don't?"

Good question, my brother! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

So do you go in and out of salvation? How do you know when you are in and how do you know when you are out? I thought I'd ask.

good question -

Rom 8:13-16