OSAS question? About repentance and stuff!! :0))

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, DQuixote -- you are so right on! :thumbs:

 

[Shiloh]

They are Brother & Sister in Christ. Who are you? by Ed


Ed a question for you.
1.What is the difference between a JW and a SDA?
2. Would you call a JW a brother or sister in the Lord?

 

[Claudia_T]

They are Brother & Sister in Christ. Who are you? by Ed


Ed a question for you.
1.What is the difference between a JW and a SDA?
2. Would you call a JW a brother or sister in the Lord?

Shiloh,

NO here is a question FOR YOU. "Who is my neighbor"? If people KNEW the answer, they might be inclined to treat others with respect no matter if they have differing doctrines or not.

If people started thinking along the lines of... is this a person that God created? maybe then they would stop acting as if they were on some sort of higher plane than others are, and would be showing them a little bit of class in how they treat them?

You may as well be asking whats the difference between an SDA and a Samaritan.


Do we not all have one Father?


Decency 101 Class:


Luke: 10
25: And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26: He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27: And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28: And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
29: But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?
30: And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
31: And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
32: And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.
33: But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
34: And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.
35: And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.
36: Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?
37: And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 

[Ed Edwards]

They are Brother & Sister in Christ. Who are you? by Ed


Ed a question for you.
1.What is the difference between a JW and a SDA?
2. Would you call a JW a brother or sister in the Lord?

The JW teach a false Christ and a false Salvation.
I do not call them brothers & sisters.

The SDA teach a true Christ and a true Salvation.
I call them Brothers & Sisters.

In the last week three times I said what I think about SDAs.
Nobody debated with me.
So I guess we are all agreed: no more dissing SDAs
(feel free to diss their doctrines that you think are in error.
BTW, when somebody saids 'that isn't what I believe' there
is a good chance one might have missed soemthing somewhere)

Back in like 1991 I was talking in a chat room to
a JW. We agreed: let us make a statement that both
JWs and Baptists agree upon.
We did. Here is the statement:

If you are saved, it was Jesus saved you.


It is interesting what you can learn from people of
other religions, if you bother to listen to what they say
instead of beating them over the head with what
somebody else said they are supposed to believe.
There are many false teachers gone out, some of them
appear to be Baptists. many Baptists sources put
out false information about other religions (and needless to
say, many other religions put out false information
about Babtists. Here is one such information:
"Baptists are called 'Hard Shell Baptists' cause they
are can't talk to strangers, won't dance, and have
Jello* for brains."

* my appologies for using a brand name, but it really
wasn't me said it, twas someone else. I just quoted it.

If there is a seriousness test the question and answer:

Occupation:
yes

shows a big lack of seriousness. Where I retired after
32 years of work, I sit for like 3 years by a man who,
when he got the ciruclatates put his initials in one column
and in the column labeled 'date' he put "wife won't let me".
needless to say, he didn't retire there.

 

[annsni]

Tali, that question has been asked and answered a zillion times since about 30 a.d. The literature available for all sides of the argument is out there in abundance. Biblically, anyone who has accepted Jesus Christ as Savior receives him as Lord. No one in that category has any desire to keep on sinning. When we sin, we are quickened (made aware of it) by the Holy Spirit. We have grieved him. We are sickened that we resorted to sin in some strange effort to be "satisfied," so to speak. In your question you ask "CAN" we sin, the equivalent of "are we able" to sin. Of course we are able to sin, but the born-again Christian chooses not to. If an individual professes before others to be a Christian and then lives in, continues in, dwells in sin, without ever experiencing the pangs of guilt and grief, then we must question whether that person had a genuine salvation experience or whether he or she is not growing in Christ because of forsaking assembling, or other surrounding circumstances. If the latter, then the Christian brother or sister who becomes aware of that needs to encourage that one to receive the whole counsel of God. Offering a local non-denominational church, a local bible study group, and attending with that person, would be appropriate. At some point that person who remains in a sinful state either wakes up to the grief being caused, or is sincerely led to receive Christ as Savior and follow him as Lord. We Christians have no excuse for failing to witness to anyone who is not a follower of Christ, or who is struggling.

Amen!!

John 10:27-30

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

 

[Tazman]

It is interesting what you can learn from people of
other religions, if you bother to listen to what they say
instead of beating them over the head with what
somebody else said they are supposed to believe.
There are many false teachers gone out, some of them
appear to be Baptists. many Baptists sources put
out false information about other religions (and needless to
say, many other religions put out false information
about Babtists.

:thumbs: many can learn from this statement

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally Posted by Ed Edwards

It is interesting what you can learn from people of
other religions, if you bother to listen to what they say
instead of beating them over the head with what
somebody else said they are supposed to believe.
There are many false teachers gone out, some of them
appear to be Baptists. many Baptists sources put
out false information about other religions (and needless to
say, many other religions put out false information
about Baptists.

When I had a Baha'i friend, I learned how
to lean on the basiscs of Christianity better.
When I had a Brethren friend, I learned
how to be a better friend to fellow saints.
When I had a Carismatic friend, I learned how
to know the full gospel Gifts of the Spirit.
When I had a Catholic friend, I learned how
to worship God better.
When I had a Church of Christ friend, I
learned how to sit in plain folding chairs
(not fancy pews).
When I had a Disciple of Christ (AKA: Christian)
friend, I learned more about the Lord's Supper.
When I had a FreeWill Baptist friend, I learned
why to work harder for the Lord.
When I had a Jewish friend, I learned how to
respect the Holy Name of G-d.
When I had a Lutheran friend, I didn't learn
much - but it wasn't his fault.
When I had a Mennonite friends, I learned I
don't like to picket Abortion Clinics.
When I had a Methodist friend, I learned
how to work harder for the Lord.
When I had a Mormon friend, I learned how
to depend on Christ more in the Latter Days.
When I had an (Eastern) Orthodox friend, I learned
how to paint faces on bas-reliefs.
When I had a Pentecostal Friend I got hooked on
prophecies about 'Ed'.
When I had a Presbyterian Friend I heard about
the 'scripture' "Many are Chilled but few are Frozen".
When I had a Reorgnaized Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter Day Saints, Temple Lot, I memorized that
long denomination name
When I had a Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) friend,
I learned how to study prophecy deeper.
When I went to a Unitarian Universalist Association
meeting, I listened to an overweight Native American
(formerly American Indian) blame white guys like me (well,
actually i'm speckled) for -- never mind, this is supposed
to be an inspirational post.
When I had a Worldwide Church of God friend in
the 1970s, I learned how to study the Bible deeper.

But I prefer a Baptist church any ol' day.

Act 17:10-11 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the brethren immediatly sent away Paul
and Silas by night vnto Berea: who comming thither,
went into the Synagogue of the Iewes.
11 These were more noble then those
in Thessalonica, in that they receiued the word.
and searched the Scriptures dayly,
with all readinesse of minde,
wither those things were so.

 

[Allan]

My point is that what you are calling a strawman is real 4 point Calvinism.

I admit that this is not the view of 3 and 5 point Calvinists that DO accept the Bible teaching on Perserance. But your claiming that I am coming up with a strawman makes it sound like I am the author of 4 point Calvinism when in fact Allen is making the perfect 4 Point Calvinist argument and he actually believes in it - whereas I am merely reporting the news:type:

In Christ,

Bob

LOL, Bob! You know absolutely NOTHING about Calvinism to even assume such a statmentconcerning what I said. Your pretence of even accusing me of 4 point Calvinism would cause true 4 pointers to go into a salving frenzied fit. LOL.

Just so you know on the baptist debate section I am one of the most ardent apologists AGAINST Calvinism. I personally (understanding Calvinism) know that you either you hold to all 5 points of Calvinism or the very system of theology loses all credibility to sustain itself. Each point is built on each other so to remove one point is to cause the whole house of cards to collapes. Just ask ANY Calvinist on here if I even hold to 3 points of Calvinism and they will laugh at you.

You seriously need to read more on Calvinism before accrediting what I said to any point in Calvinism. But I must say I laughed so hard I actually cried...

But if you want to say I hold to one aspect (1 point) of Calvinism then yes it would the Perserverance of the saints as described constinatly in scripture.
Definition - Steady persistence in adhering to a course of action, a belief, or a purpose; steadfastness.
2 Cor 5:15 - Paraphrased - One saved always changed.
But please understand it is not Calvinism that the first had this understanding from the scripters. I came from the Apostles, through the early church fathers and through the ages. Especially since the doctrine wherewith one can loose their salvation was propagated by the Catholic Church and has remained a sound doctrine that keeps many Catholics from leaving. Actually you find this doctrine almost every cult to keep their practioners from leaving their falsehoods.

You will find the difference due to an understanding regarding the covenants and who maintains the covenant (ex. suzerity (sp?) King's promise to servants and is upheld regardless of the other side; and Parity - one made by equals with regard to ability to sustain or keep the pledge but kept or upheld by both sides - If one dishonors it the covenant is broken; example of parity is a marriage) \

Since we are not Gods equals the only covenant He can make with regard to salvation must be suzerity and therefore it is maintained by God and kept by Him because He is the giver of this gift. It can only be null or voided if GOD defaults on His promise to save.

 

[Allan]

HP: We all agree that no man saves himself. WE are all sinners and no amount of good can ever atone for the evil we have done. Just the same, where is the Scriptural evidence to support your last words which again stated,

You are trying to establish a logical deduction from a premise that makes no logical sense or has any biblical support. We are warned repeatedly in Scripture of apostasy, falling away, and loosing our first estate. If it were not possible, why all the warnings?

In your first paragraph -
Are you saying you CAN save youself outside of Gods intervention?? Or am I reading you wrong. Because scripture abounds with the teaching you can not come to God of yourself and is WHY God came to man.

Second paragraph-
You are under the assumption that apostasy is done by a believer. Scripture references then as being among believes but then if you will just continue reading you will find it stating things - if they were of us they would have stayed among us thereby we KNOW they were NEVER one of us. Ya know things like that.

This is why Paul says to EXAMINE yourself to whether you are IN the Faith. Many people THINK (mental accent) that they are believers but they are not. This is why Jesus tells the one on Judgment day who claims "Lord, Lord have we not...for you name sake..." and Jesus will tell them to depart those who work iniquity or one who was NEVER mine. NOT one who walked away!

 

[Allan]

HP: Why is it that you seem to read “cannot perish” into the words “should not perish?” In your estimation if I say that you ‘should not go to the store,’ is that one in the same with making that read, ‘cannot go to the store?’

In the Greek it is WILL NOT perish... Use a concordance. I could post it in Greek to lend to the credibility, but why? If you wont even believe what is right in front of you in english

 

[Allan]

This is a good foundational argument for 4 Point Calvinism's denial of the Bible teaching on Perseverance. The idea is nothing you did results in salvation and no amount of "failing to persevere" ten years from today "including unbelief and paganism" could ever make any other change in your salvation -- no change in any case either for Good or evil -- is based on "what you do" what you choose or whether you decide to continue in faith or completely dump it.
Bob

Your problem is Bob, is that you don't even understand the doctrine you are trying to refute. You sound...ummm...quite silly really.

You might want to get more studying in before answering conerning the doctrinal view of another.

Once a person is truly saved or a true beleiver they are changed by God in such a way that they CAN NOT fall into paganism, or even a lifestyle of sin. A born-agian believer though they may sin they will not - NAY- can not continue in such a way that it becomes a lifestyle. God is the corrector of His Children and HE it is that will not allow them to go far but HE will bring them back to repentence. Yes we are the ones repenting but it is because God is the one who showed us we need to and that we have broken fellowship with Him.

 

[Allan]

Are you talking about your initial salvation?
No one can die for sins but Christ.

But after we've made the choice to follow christ repenting of our minds and heart against God, we then must maintain that choice while following Him. All his promises are for those who overcome, not those who leave him. (for those people who leave Him, there are other scriptures)

What is your take on Rev 3:5 (i just want to see how far you will go to make your doctrine work)

I. Sardis: The Dying Church (3:1-6)

Sardis was a church with works but not much life. It once had a reputation for being alive, but it was dead. What a graphic description of some historic ministries today! G. Campbell Morgan called it “reputation without reality.”

Christ warns the saints: (1) Be watchful, be alert; (2) strengthen the few things you do have; (3) remember the Word you have received and heard; (4) hold fast and be ready when I come.

Verse 5 has bothered people, for it seems to suggest that unfaithful Christians will have their names taken out of the book of life. The “book of life” contains the names of all those who are born. Those who reject Christ have their names blotted out of the book, for they are dead. True believers have their names recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life (13:8; 21:27). Those who do not have their names in the latter book of life will go to hell (20:15). A person may have his or her name on a church roll, but not be saved. What surprises there will be when “the books are opened”! (20:12) Churches today can have “living” names and yet be dead.

WIERSBE’S EXPOSITORY OUTLINES

Since I agree 100% with what he states here, I used his conclusion to better illistrate my point.
And another John MacArthur:

He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. (3:5–6)

By way of encouragement, Christ described the rewards awaiting those who participated in the revival. True Christians, as already noted, will be clothed in white garments. In the ancient world, white garments were also worn for festive occasions such as weddings. True Christians will wear theirs at the marriage supper of the Lamb (19:7–9). White robes were also worn by those celebrating victory in battle; all true Christians are victorious through Christ over sin, death, and Satan. But, as noted earlier in the discussion of verse 4, primarily believers’ white garments represent purity and holiness. Christ promises to clothe Christians in the brilliance of eternal purity and holiness.

Christ further promises every true Christian that He will not erase his name from the book of life, but will confess his name before the Father and before His angels. Incredibly, although the text says just the opposite, some people assume that this verse teaches that a Christian’s name can be erased from the book of life. They thus foolishly turn a promise into a threat. Exodus 32:33, it is argued by some, supports the idea that God may remove someone’s name from the Book of Life. In that passage the Lord tells Moses that “whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.” There is no contradiction, however, between that passage and Christ’s promise in Revelation 3:5. The book referred to in Exodus 32:33 is not the Book of Life described here, in Philippians 4:3, and later in Revelation (13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27). Instead, it refers to the book of the living, the record of those who are alive (cf. Ps. 69:28). The threat, then, is not eternal damnation, but physical death.

In John’s day, rulers kept a register of the citizens of a city. If someone died, or committed a serious crime, their name was erased from that register. Christ, the King of heaven, promises never to erase a true Christian’s name from the roll of those whose names were “written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain” (13:8).

On the contrary, Christ will confess every believer’s name before God the Father and before His angels. He will affirm that they belong to Him. Here Christ reaffirmed the promise He made during His earthly ministry: “Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 10:32). The comforting truth that true Christians’ salvation is eternally secure is the unmistakable teaching of Scripture. Nowhere is that truth more strongly stated than in Romans 8:28–39:

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written, “For Your sake we are being put to death all day long; we were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.” But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The letter to Sardis ends, like the other six, with an exhortation to heed the counsel, commands, and promises it contains: He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The spiritually dead zombies playing church needed to heed Christ’s warning of impending judgment. The indifferent believers needed to wake up before it was too late to save their church. And the faithful few could take comfort in the knowledge that their salvation was eternally secure.

What happened to Sardis? Did they heed the warning? Did revival come? That such a prominent man as Melito served as bishop of Sardis several decades after John wrote argues that at least some revival took place in Sardis. Until Christ returns, it is not too late for other dead churches to find the path to spiritual renewal.

 

[Allan]

Man I'm gone for a few days and I get hammered!

I didn't think that believing my salvation was in the hands of God and that God would change my life so radically I would ever seek out my old again was such an abhorent thing but I guess so. Wow, has the Gods people really fallen so far...

 

[Shiloh]

Wow, has the Gods people really fallen so far... No. That's the point I am trying to make.

 

[Claudia_T]

In your first paragraph -
Are you saying you CAN save youself outside of Gods intervention?? Or am I reading you wrong. Because scripture abounds with the teaching you can not come to God of yourself and is WHY God came to man.

Second paragraph-
You are under the assumption that apostasy is done by a believer. Scripture references then as being among believes but then if you will just continue reading you will find it stating things - if they were of us they would have stayed among us thereby we KNOW they were NEVER one of us. Ya know things like that.

This is why Paul says to EXAMINE yourself to whether you are IN the Faith. Many people THINK (mental accent) that they are believers but they are not. This is why Jesus tells the one on Judgment day who claims "Lord, Lord have we not...for you name sake..." and Jesus will tell them to depart those who work iniquity or one who was NEVER mine. NOT one who walked away!

The Ten Virgins all had their robes on, white robes of purity, claiming to be Christians. Five were foolish. The Lamps they carried represent the Word of God (Thy Word is a Lamp unto my Feet). But Five had no oil (Holy Spirit).

Jesus told them Depart from Me, yes that work iniquity (lawlessness) I never knew you.

Its that simple. Many Christians today make a mere profession of Christianity. With no inward change.

 

[Tazman]

Allan wrote:I. Sardis: The Dying Church (3:1-6)

Sardis was a church with works but not much life. It once had a reputation for being alive, but it was dead. What a graphic description of some historic ministries today! G. Campbell Morgan called it “reputation without reality.”

I can agree with the point of the above statement

Christ warns the saints: (1) Be watchful, be alert; (2) strengthen the few things you do have; (3) remember the Word you have received and heard; (4) hold fast and be ready when I come.

your summation of verses one through 4 seems a bit out of order, but we'll work with it. Keep in mind the order of reference is very important, if you're are not careful you may give the wrong interpretation of Jesus' words.
It's interesting how you separated the above comments from the following

Allan -
Verse 5 has bothered people, for it seems to suggest that unfaithful Christians will have their names taken out of the book of life. The “book of life” contains the names of all those who are born. Those who reject Christ have their names blotted out of the book, for they are dead. True believers have their names recorded in the Lamb’s Book of Life (13:8; 21:27). Those who do not have their names in the latter book of life will go to hell (20:15). A person may have his or her name on a church roll, but not be saved. What surprises there will be when “the books are opened”! (20:12) Churches today can have “living” names and yet be dead.
WIERSBE’S EXPOSITORY OUTLINES

I'd be careful yet again with the "good" commentaries you decide to reference.
Whenever some one starts off a statement with "it seems to suggest.....", well they are aknowledging what the passage says, but must attempt to clearify it to their own meaning.

Within that first statement the writer is concerned about the salvation of "UNFAITHFUL CHRISTIONS" as he would call them. Is there a such thing?

This persons premis to the BOL is completely flawed!

1. If this BOL that Jesus is speaking of is not His own, but all inclusive of the World, then why address it to The Church - His body? John 3:19 Jesus say the verdict is men love darkness and will not come into the light. So why would Jesus address non believers as though they had some hope and now it gone?) Just because some one is born physically doesn't mean they are born spiritaully. By referencing Jesus' book of life that way this is what your commentary is doing.
2. Your commentary has a contradiction of terms that seems to be more opinionated than contextually accurate. "Unfaithful" vs "True Believers". Does the "unfaithful" not believe or not care? Should he rather made the comparison of the Faithful vs Unfaithful? There is a point to this.
3. Read the scripture and you will see that it does not line up with your commentary:

I know your deeds (JESUS); you (THE CHURCH) have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die (WHATS TO STRENGTHEN IF IT IS DEAD?) for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God (JESUS JUDGES CURRENT CHRISTIAN - FAITHFUL OR NOT ON CURRENT PROGRESS). 3Remember (INDICATES A PRE-EXISTING RELATIONSHIP), therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up (CURRENT CHRISTIANS WHOME, BECAUSE OF THEIR CURRENT SPIRITUAL CONDITION CALLS THEM: SLEEPERS NEEDING TO WAKE UP), I will come like a thief, and you (CHRISTIANS WHO ARE SLEEPING IN SIN) will not know at what time I will come to you. 4Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes (THEY WOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN THOSE WHO HAVE "SOILED THEIR CLOTHES" - MEANING THEY WERE CLEAN BY JESUS AT SOME POINT. CAN'T GET DIRTY UNLESS YOUVE BEEN CLEAN - IT ONLY MAKES SENSE. KEEP IN MIND THAT JESUS IS TALKING ABOUT BEING ONCE CLEAN HE IS NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WORLD WHO NEVER CAME TO HIM TO BE CLEANED). They (FAITHFUL CLEAN KEEPING CHRISTIANS) will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy (WHOA, WE CAN BE WORTHY). 5He who overcomes (OVERCOME WHAT? THE WORLD) will, like them (CLEAN CHRISTIANS), be dressed in white. I will never blot out his (OVERCOMERS - CLEAN CHRISTIANS) name from the book of life (DOESN'T SEEM LIKE YOUR STANDARD RECORD BOOK to me), but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels. 6He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

ASK YOURSELF THESE COMMON SENSE QUESTIONS:

IF the BOL is just a record of people born into the world, why would Jesus be Refering to them as someone who was once clean?

Or once alive?

Or as those having something to "strengthen" if nothing was never there?

No! It's the spiritual book concerning the lives of HIS CHURCH not the WORLD. BIG DIFFERENCE!

 

[BobRyan]

Man I'm gone for a few days and I get hammered!

I didn't think that believing my salvation was in the hands of God and that God would change my life so radically I would ever seek out my old again was such an abhorent thing but I guess so. Wow, has the Gods people really fallen so far...

The NT describes it in the "Forgiveness revoked" chapter of Matt 18 where the king insists that the servant WAS fully forgiven and was in a position to share the gratitude for what he had really experienced with his fellow servants. In fact that is what draws the complaint - he WAS fully forgiven and YET amazingly refused to share out of joy for what he had fully received --

The NT describes the return to rebellion as a "dog returnes to his own vomit".

It is hard to simply explain these texts away in favor of the man-made tradition known as OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
This is a good foundational argument for 4 Point Calvinism's denial of the Bible teaching on Perseverance. The idea is nothing you did results in salvation and no amount of "failing to persevere" ten years from today "including unbelief and paganism" could ever make any other change in your salvation -- no change in any case either for Good or evil -- is based on "what you do" what you choose or whether you decide to continue in faith or completely dump it.
Bob

Your problem is Bob, is that you don't even understand the doctrine you are trying to refute. You sound...ummm...quite silly really.

You might want to get more studying in before answering conerning the doctrinal view of another.

Is this where you complain that "you" are getting pounded?

Once a person is truly saved or a true beleiver they are changed by God in such a way that they CAN NOT fall into paganism, or even a lifestyle of sin. A born-agian believer though they may sin they will not - NAY- can not continue in such a way that it becomes a lifestyle.

Is this where you now ACCEPT the Bible doctrine on Perseverance instead of denying it as do 4 Point Calvinists???

God is the corrector of His Children and HE it is that will not allow them to go far but HE will bring them back to repentence. Yes we are the ones repenting but it is because God is the one who showed us we need to and that we have broken fellowship with Him.

Sounds now like you are in the 5 point group.

Which one do you want to really join - Perseverance -- in our out?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ed a question for you.
1.What is the difference between a JW and a SDA?

#1. SDAs are Trinitarian - JWs are not.
#2. SDAs believe that the second coming is future and literal and that the saints are all taken to heaven at the rapture which takes place at the 2nd coming.... JWs do not.
#3. SDAs believe that there are saved Christians in all denominations...JWs do not

While BOTH groups claim to argue from scripture alone and claim salvation by grace through faith - the SDA view is backed by sound exegesis.

SDAs follow the Bible practice of sound exegesis.. rather than simply ranting about what others say with little or no Bible evidence at all for the wild views a few others might suggest.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

LOL, Bob! You know absolutely NOTHING about Calvinism to even assume such a statmentconcerning what I said. Your pretence of even accusing me of 4 point Calvinism would cause true 4 pointers to go into a salving frenzied fit. LOL.

Just so you know on the baptist debate section I am one of the most ardent apologists AGAINST Calvinism. I personally (understanding Calvinism) know that you either you hold to all 5 points of Calvinism or the very system of theology loses all credibility to sustain itself. Each point is built on each other so to remove one point is to cause the whole house of cards to collapes. Just ask ANY Calvinist on here if I even hold to 3 points of Calvinism and they will laugh at you.

My debate history on the Calvinism-vs-Arminian board is "considerable" as well. You bring out a good point about Arminians that accept OSAS looking like Calvinists that reject perseverance when they speak to their OSAS beliefs.

Often Calvinists themselves expose this flaw in the Arminian-OSAS camp and I have to admit - they make a good case for showing how the Arminians are totally wrecking the Arminian doctrinal position by ALSO clinging to the man-made traditions on OSAS.

Hence in the discussion like this - it is easy to confuse an Arminian defense of OSAS with 4 point calvinism and in some cases with 5 point Calvinism -- because they start making claims about what the saved person "CAN NO LONGER CHOOSE".

Pretty obvious problem when you really think about it.

But if you want to say I hold to one aspect (1 point) of Calvinism then yes it would the Perserverance of the saints as described constinatly in scripture.

Well that is good - but if it is "Perseverance as in NO CHOICE" then the flaw Calvinists typically point out in that Arminian-OSAS model is shown to be a valid argument against it.

I hold to Perseverance AND to the Arminian view which means I am forced to reject OSAS as not only man-made-tradition not found in scripture -- but also as totally nonsensical when viewed within the Arminian framework.

Just stating the obvious here.,

But when you argue "Nothing we did participates in the salvation event whereby an individual is saved - therefore nothing we might do separates us" you ARE Making the 4 point Calvinist argument -- like it or not! IF I were a 4 point Calvinist arguing against such a compromised Arminian-OSAS view I would dearly delight in holding your feet to that fire of "accountability" pointing out this glaring flaw in your otherwise Arminian arguments.

in Christ,

Bob
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