Osas?

[Moriah]

Calvinists say that God saves us while we hate Him. That is NOT scripture. Jesus says he gives us his spirit WHEN we love him and we love him when we obey. See John 14:23.
Calvinists say that we cannot believe in God after learning of Him. That is exactly how we come to have faith. Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:14. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11.

 

[Moriah]

This is Amy's post in the recenltly closed thread Eternal Security the Acid test.


Today, 05:39 AM
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Amy.G Amy.G is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriah View Post

Why is it dreadful to fall into the hands of the living God when He judges you?
It's only dreadful for the unsaved.

From Albert Barnes Commentary:
"The idea here is, that to fall into the hands of the Lord, after having despised his mercy and rejected his salvation, would be terrific; and the fear of this should deter from the commission of the dreadful crime."
__________________
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


My reply: Amy,
The scripture says God will judge His people, how are they called God's people if they were not saved? Why is God judging His people a dreadful thing?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Free-willers not satisfied with always having the first word, are not happy unless they always get the last word as well.

Let them have every word for themselves, for all I care.

 

[Moriah]

Free-willers not satisfied with always having the first word, are not happy unless they always get the last word as well.

Let them have every word for themselves, for all I care.

Can you post about the topic of my thread instead of just ranting about imagined things?

 

[Amy.G]

This is Amy's post in the recenltly closed thread Eternal Security the Acid test.



It's only dreadful for the unsaved.

From Albert Barnes Commentary:
"The idea here is, that to fall into the hands of the Lord, after having despised his mercy and rejected his salvation, would be terrific; and the fear of this should deter from the commission of the dreadful crime."
__________________
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.


My reply: Amy,
The scripture says God will judge His people, how are they called God's people if they were not saved? Why is God judging His people a dreadful thing?

Here is the context:

Hebrews 10:29-31 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


This is describing an unsaved person who has rejected Christ. This is the person that needs to fear the judgment of God.

Counting the blood of Christ as unholy or common is denying His divinity and is blasphemous.

"His people" refers to the Jewish nation. As it was under the OT, if His people rejected Him, they would not be saved, so it is under the NT as well. No faith = no salvation.

 

[Moriah]

"His people" refers to the Jewish nation. As it was under the OT, if His people rejected Him, they would not be saved, so it is under the NT as well. No faith = no salvation.

You still have not explained how they can be His people but not have been saved.

 

[Amy.G]

You still have not explained how they can be His people but not have been saved.

John 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jesus came to His own (the Jews). But some did not receive Him, and those who did not, were not saved.

 

[Moriah]

John 1:11-12 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Jesus came to His own (the Jews). But some did not receive Him, and those who did not, were not saved.

They were His own. They were saved; they were saved until they rejected Jesus. They were then cut off. That is what the word of God says. Now are you going to stop denying it?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

They were His own. They were saved; they were saved until they rejected Jesus. They were then cut off. That is what the word of God says. Now are you going to stop denying it?

Of course not; a convinced Calvinist would rather die than relinquish a false doctrine.

 

[Moriah]

Of course not; a convinced Calvinist would rather die than relinquish a false doctrine.

It sure seems like they would rather die than relinquish a false doctrine. The sad thing is, is that many Calvinists believed in free will at one time, but they gave up that truth easily enough when someone convinced them into Calvinism.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I can see the wisdom in her response. She was not denying the ability to choose but denied that true children of God would ever make such a choice.

There are things that accompany salvation that confirm what she said. God creates the believer "in Christ" and this creative works is characterized by an inward man that is created in TRUE HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSNESS (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10; Tit. 3:5) and this new created inward man is inseparably part of the child of God in spiritual union withe Indwelling Spirit of God. This aspect of the child of God cannot choose sin because it has no capacity to choose sin simply because it is created in TRUE HOLINESS and RIGHTEOUSENESS and its "delight" is in "the law of God" and this is the divine "seed" implanted in every child of God that "cannot sin" (1 Jn. 3:9).

In addition, God the Holy Spirit indwells within the child of God and exercises influence over the human will so that Paul could say "For it is God that WORKETH IN YOU both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure."

Hence, there is this TWO FOLD UNION neither of which is capable of sinning, as the Holy Spirit will never work in you both to WILL and to Do sin and neither can this inward man CREATED after the image of God will or do sin.

Both to WILL and to DO sin must come from some other aspect of the nature of the child of God and that is "the flesh" according to Paul which NEVER can choose anthying other to WILL and to DO sin because it is NEVER redeemed but is under the reign of death and MUST succumb to death "This body OF DEATH." (Rom. 7:18-25).

Hence, the flesh will never choose anything other than to sin while the newly created inward man in union with the Spirit of God will never choose anything else but "good." If indwelling sin has the POWER to overule the inward man then sin is the outcome. However, if the inward man is EMPOWERED by the indwelling Spirit then the body is quicked and the deeds of the flesh are mortified and the outcome is the manifest life of Christ through the believer. Since, the Holy Spirit will never leave or forsake the child of God and since that which is created in true righteousness and holiness never will choose to sin, then, ultimate victory is assured and the willingness to sin is confined and restricted only to that unredeemed aspect of human nature so that Paul can say "It is no longer I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." Hence, the redeemed man always sins MORE THAN HE WANTS TO and due to failing to yeild to the POWER of the Indwelling Spirit of God.

Therefore your grandmother is right.

Yours is a good post, but I will still have to disagree with my mom and you.

If we all maintain the ability to choose after regeneration, then the possibility -- even probability -- that someone will choose to reject their salvation remains. The scriptures attest to this. Also, I have seen some examples of people actually doing this. And everything I knew about these people pointed to the genuineness of their prior conversion.

So, based on scripture, what I believe about the character of God, and man, I must conclude that people may, and some do, reject their salvation.

However, I must state that what my mom said, and what you have just written, are the two most compelling things I've seen in support of OSAS.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

It sure seems like they would rather die than relinquish a false doctrine. The sad thing is, is that many Calvinists believed in free will at one time, but they gave up that truth easily enough when someone convinced them into Calvinism.

Ah, but see, they would say that they never really had free will; they just thought they did, and that they were predestined to come to Calvinism.

 

[Amy.G]

If we all maintain the ability to choose after regeneration, then the possibility -- even probability -- that someone will choose to reject their salvation remains. The scriptures attest to this.

Since you are so sure of the probability that someone will choose to reject their salvation, what would be their reason for giving up eternal life in favor of going to hell?

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Since you are so sure of the probability that someone will choose to reject their salvation, what would be their reason for giving up eternal life in favor of going to hell?

I know a Christian -- yes, a true believer -- who did copious amounts of research and came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a historical figure and that the Christian religion was manufactured. Further, from scientific study, he came to the conclusion that there was no proof or evidence for a God, heaven, or hell. So, he claims he is now an atheist, although I did get him to admit that he is an agnostic and would be open to proof of God and Jesus, if it existed.

So, he doesn't consider that he gave up eternal life because he doesn't believe in heaven, and he doesn't believe he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in that, either!

And I am telling you that this person was the most conservatively zealous person that anyone could be for the Christian faith. He was at one time a follower of Kent Hovind, and I think it had a very detrimental effect on him when Hovind went to prison.

 

[convicted1]

I know a Christian -- yes, a true believer -- who did copious amounts of research and came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a historical figure and that the Christian religion was manufactured. Further, from scientific study, he came to the conclusion that there was no proof or evidence for a God, heaven, or hell. So, he claims he is now an atheist, although I did get him to admit that he is an agnostic and would be open to proof of God and Jesus, if it existed.

So, he doesn't consider that he gave up eternal life because he doesn't believe in heaven, and he doesn't believe he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in that, either!

And I am telling you that this person was the most conservatively zealous person that anyone could be for the Christian faith. He was at one time a follower of Kent Hovind, and I think it had a very detrimental effect on him when Hovind went to prison.

Sounds like their faith was in this Kent Horvind fellow, moreso than in God, if you ask me. I am not judging this person, because I know nothing about them, but it does sound like his faith was in the wrong one.

 

[convicted1]

I know a Christian -- yes, a true believer -- who did copious amounts of research and came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a historical figure and that the Christian religion was manufactured. Further, from scientific study, he came to the conclusion that there was no proof or evidence for a God, heaven, or hell. So, he claims he is now an atheist, although I did get him to admit that he is an agnostic and would be open to proof of God and Jesus, if it existed.

So, he doesn't consider that he gave up eternal life because he doesn't believe in heaven, and he doesn't believe he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in that, either!

And I am telling you that this person was the most conservatively zealous person that anyone could be for the Christian faith. He was at one time a follower of Kent Hovind, and I think it had a very detrimental effect on him when Hovind went to prison.

Another thing, I can not truly prove that there is God, Son, Holy Ghost, heaven, hell, that Jesus walked on water. I also can't truly prove that there is satan, hell, the lake of fire, eternal punishment for those who die in their sins, etc. It's why we call it faith.

 

[annsni]

I know a Christian -- yes, a true believer -- who did copious amounts of research and came to the conclusion that Jesus was not a historical figure and that the Christian religion was manufactured. Further, from scientific study, he came to the conclusion that there was no proof or evidence for a God, heaven, or hell. So, he claims he is now an atheist, although I did get him to admit that he is an agnostic and would be open to proof of God and Jesus, if it existed.

So, he doesn't consider that he gave up eternal life because he doesn't believe in heaven, and he doesn't believe he is going to hell because he doesn't believe in that, either!

And I am telling you that this person was the most conservatively zealous person that anyone could be for the Christian faith. He was at one time a follower of Kent Hovind, and I think it had a very detrimental effect on him when Hovind went to prison.

That doesn't really sound like a true believer to me.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Sounds like their faith was in this Kent Horvind fellow, moreso than in God, if you ask me. I am not judging this person, because I know nothing about them, but it does sound like his faith was in the wrong one.

No, not true. I just gave this as one example of what happened to him. He was one of the most devout and devoted Christians I have ever known.

But now he relies on the scientific method to determine what is true. I have pointed out the fallacies of that to him, but to no avail -- yet.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

That doesn't really sound like a true believer to me.

Well, you are wrong, as usual.

Seriously, as certain as one can be about another's salvation, I was certain of his.

 

[annsni]

Well, you are wrong, as usual.

Seriously, as certain as one can be about another's salvation, I was certain of his.

There are those who play the game well but it just goes to show that the heart is deceitful.