1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.Well, you are wrong, as usual.
Seriously, as certain as one can be about another's salvation, I was certain of his.
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Osas?
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Michael Wrenn
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Thanks, but I will not get into prooftexting with you, as I could post scripture that supports what I believe.
There are no doubt people who were never really converted, but this is not so with this guy. Of course I can't be 100% certain this is the case, but I'm as close to 100% as it's possible to be. He was a devoted Christian for years.
Ah, but see, they would say that they never really had free will; they just thought they did, and that they were predestined to come to Calvinism.
How easily they fell for that.
Well, you are wrong, as usual.
Seriously, as certain as one can be about another's salvation, I was certain of his.
What they (the posters going against you here) do not understand is that IF he had stood firm to the end, he would have made it to eternal life.
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Or maybe he wouldn't have. Maybe he would be one who Jesus would have said "I never knew you. Depart from me."
Michael Wrenn
New Member
Yes, and I am still working on him. He kind of reminds me of myself and what I went through 35 or so years ago. I am praying that God will draw him back and reveal some things to him.
Jesus says that he will reveal himself to those who have his teachings and obey them.
He who has my commandments and obeys them--he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will clearly reveal myself to him." John 14:21.
Now that is the powerful, beautiful, pure Word of God.
If he is standing firm in the truth until the end, like Jesus says, then how would Jesus say that to him?
Perhaps he "believed" as you do and tried to work for his salvation and found out all it did was leave him a tired, weary failure. Many people give up because they grow tired of working for God's love when all they had to do was believe and rest in it. That's why it's called GRACE.
Why are you teaching people not to do things Jesus tells us to do?
First, it is impossible that you a mere mortal can know or look at this man's heart before or after his apostasy and say with absolute certainty he was ever a true child of God.
Second, 1 John 2:18-19 explicitly addresses plural "anti-christs" not merely the spirit of the anti-christ but those turned against Christ and explicitly denies that such were ever indeed true children of God.
18 ¶ Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
The preceding context is a directive that true children of God love not the world or the things in the world (vv. 15-17) as any who loves the world is proof that the "love of God" is not in them. That is what introduces verses 18-19 or proof that the love of God is NOT IN THEM.
There is a singular "anti-christ" that will come but John writes that RIGHT NOW there are "MANY ANTI-CHRISTS" or those who have turned against Christ.
1. They went out "FROM US" - once were professed Christians who departed from that profession.
2. They were not "OF US" - It takes more than a profession to be a Christian
3. Because "IF THEY HAD BEEN OF US" - If they had been GENUINE Christians
4. "THEY WOULD HAVE NO DOUBT CONTINUED WITH US" - Geniune Christians do no depart from the faith.
5. "BUT THEY WENT OUT" These did depart from their PROFESSION not from genuine salvation.
6. "THAT IT MIGHT BE MADE MANIFEST" - no human can look at the heart becuase it is not manifest but their departure from Christ proves one thing:
7. "THAT THEY WERE NOT ALL OF US" - Turning against Christ is "MANIFEST" PROOF of a false profession.
I am not prooftexting here, but giving an exposition of verse 19 in its immediate context.
Hence, the Word of God demands that manifest apostasy is proof of false profession not true profession turned false.
The fact that he was a convert of Kevin Hovand, intellectual evidence, indicates he was a INTELLECTUAL convert rather than a HEART convert. "WITH THE HEART man believeth..."
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Jesus never taught people that one must work for their salvation.
Thus the question then is: Why are you teaching a lie?
The problem here, is that you must start with clear and explicit statements and precepts to prove anything you believe the Bible teaches. So proof texting is not wrong! What is wrong is jerking a text out of its context and proof texting! Prove that 1 John 2:19 is being jerked out of context or else it proves your position is wrong.
Read my signature. Jesus tells those who are weary and heavy laden to come to Him for rest. He is making a comparison of the animals that were used to carry huge, heavy loads and would become so weary they couldn't go any farther to the heavy weight of the Law that was a burden for the Jews to carry. They could not fulfill every jot and tittle of the Law any more than you can.
Jesus fulfilled ALL of the Law in our place. He took the punishment for sin in OUR place and by HIS stripes we are healed. We can rest in the work that Jesus has done for us.
When the Jews crossed over into the promised land, God told them that they would have fields, vineyards, homes, animals and many other things that THEY didn't plant or work for. That was a picture or shadow of the work that Christ did on our behalf. We can now enter into a rest that we did not deserve or earn, but is given to us out of love and grace. Man could NEVER earn salvation. That is why Jesus purchased it for us.
Having faith is to STOP working and trust in Jesus.
Compare that to 1 John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."
You are teaching lies.
You lie about the Bible, and you lie about what I say.
I have explained to you many times that we do not do works of the law for salvation, as the Jews once did. We do not do things anymore that do not show the condition of the heart, like circumcision and sin offerings.
If you want to debate people, at least debate them on what they believe. Do you not have any concern about lying? Oh yeah, what does it matter if you lie or not, you think you are OSAS and are a servant that has to do nothing.
Can you see this?
Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
John 14
15 “If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”
23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.
28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31 but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
“Come now; let us leave.
How many times does Jesus have to tell you? How can you deny and go against the Word of God.
DHK is not lying! You are ignorant of the "works of the law" and what that entails. If you think that merely is restrictive to the revelation of God's righteousness restricted to Jews under Moses you are most ignorant of the Law of God. The Mosaic law is the most comprehensive revelation of God's righteousness ever given to humans. It comprehends any kind of "deeds" or "works" (same Greek term translates both terms) that YOU DO - commandment keeping of any kind to obtain, maintain justification before God.
I can hardly believe that you think to forgive your brother is a work! Doe forgiving your brother make you weary?! I can hardly believe that you call stop cheating on your husband a work. When a person stop committing adultery, does that cause them to be weary?! I can hardly believe that you call offering your brother food when he is hungry a work. I can hardly believe that you call confessing and repenting sins a work!
Do you know what the work the Jews had to do? Do you really think you have ever experienced that kind of work for salvation? The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.
I will tell you the same thing I told Amy!
I can hardly believe that you think to forgive your brother is a work! Does forgiving your brother make you weary?! I can hardly believe that you call stop cheating on your wife a work. When a person stop committing adultery, does that cause them to be weary?! I can hardly believe that you call offering your brother food when he is hungry a work. I can hardly believe that you call confessing and repenting sins a work!
Do you know what the work the Jews had to do? Do you really think you have ever experienced that kind of work for salvation? The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.
The WORKS of the law were circumcision. The works of the law is a written code with regulations, for worship, and an earthly sanctuary. Gifts and sacrifices were required for worship and the earthly sanctuary. They a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washing---external regulations. Those are the works of the law.
God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:14.
DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED CONFESSION TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED FORGIVING YOUR BROTHER TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED STOP LUSTING WITH YOUR EYES TO THE CROSS!
God forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. Colossians 2:14.
DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED CONFESSION TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED FORGIVING YOUR BROTHER TO THE CROSS? DO YOU REALLY THINK GOD NAILED STOP LUSTING WITH YOUR EYES TO THE CROSS!
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