OT Salvation

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Were men saved in the OT? If so, how were they saved? This should prove to be a very enlightening thread.:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 11 - saved and taken to heaven in the case of Enoch, Moses and Elijah. SAVED such that THEY are the giants of faith held up as examples to the NT saints!

Romans 4 - saved to the point of being the FATHER of the faithful.

Heb 4:1-3 "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also"

For it is appointed unto man "once to die - and THEN comes judgment" Heb 9.

SAVED so that those OT saints are called "The DEAD IN CHRIST" when they are raised at the rapture of the saints in 1Thess 4.

Those groups that teach that you can "get saved after you die" are not getting that particular doctrine from scripture.

The OT SIN problem (depravity and needing the new birth) was the SAME as it is today -- and the solution (new birth, new covenant, new heart, work of the Holy Spirit etc) was/is the SAME.

Further - "God so loved the WORLD" before the cross.

Noah a preacher of righteousness - worked for God.

Jonah ministered to Ninevah for God.

The King of Salem -- worked for God

God has always "so loved the world" -- yes even before the cross.

Hint: this is the short form of my argument. More if people are interested.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: Hint: this is the short form of my argument. More if people are interested.

HP: Please continue. I am sure many are interested in this subject. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

Were men saved in the OT?

Yep......women, too!! :godisgood:

http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: Yep......women, too!!

HP: OK Yep too! :laugh:

How were they saved? Were all saved the same way? Did God require the same things from all? Could God have required some things out of some, and other things from others? If God requires something from one did the individual have the right to say,” forget it God. I already repented and had faith?” Did God have to offer His salvation to all equally in order to be seen as just? Did some that had heathen parents living far away from God and truth have the same advantage of hearing the message of salvation as say the sons of a priest?

That should be enough fodder for a great nights rest.:thumbs:

 

[Joe]

Questions Questions Questions

Without the law, there is no sin. So... I think that means everyone was saved automatically until the law (10 commandments) came into effect.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Heb 4:1-3 "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also"

(Not the mention the rest of Bob's post) There is your answer. From Adam onward all humans are saved through faith in the gospel.

 

[skypair]

Were men saved in the OT? If so, how were they saved? This should prove to be a very enlightening thread.:thumbs:

Men were "begun to be saved." What do I mean by that?

Salvation involves 3 "steps:" 1) Justification by God, 2) Sanctification by the Spirit, and 3) glorification by the Son at the rapture/change.

Anyone who knows anything about the OT-NT knows that salvation begins always and ever with repentance unto faith In the OT, this was repentance toward God the Father Who gave to men the "righteousness of God" but no Holy Spirit indwelling.

In the NT, we repent towards Christ Who is God revealed in flesh. Our repentance is still toward God BUT our "gift" from God is to be like Christ -- to be sanctified with His Spirit indwelling us.

Now, HP, I think that upshot of your OP is "How then do the OT saints become sanctified by the Spirit indwelling?" Instead of being raptured with the church who are indwelt pretrib, they will be resurrected postrib (Mt 24:31) to Christ's earthly MK. THERE they will repent towards Him and be indwelt/gifted as we are now until the end when they will be raptured/changed as we were.

skypair

 

[s8147817430]

Were men saved in the OT? If so, how were they saved? This should prove to be a very enlightening thread.:thumbs:

Yes, by grace alone through faith alone in the death of Christ alone who was to come.

 

[s8147817430]

Questions Questions Questions

Without the law, there is no sin. So... I think that means everyone was saved automatically until the law (10 commandments) came into effect.

Now, the law only increased the trangression.

 

[BobRyan]

Questions Questions Questions

Without the law, there is no sin. So... I think that means everyone was saved automatically until the law (10 commandments) came into effect.

The NT authors state clearly that Adam 'sinned' Romans 5.

The OT states clearly that God warns Cain about 'sin' and the fact that he was to get the victory over it.

The text of Romans 4 is clear that where there is no law there is no sin.

God was specific in stating the "Abraham kept my laws, commandments and statutes" when speaking to Isaac and Jacob.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Just when did the notion of a coming redeeemer come into play? If all were required to 'have faith' as we, what were they required to have faith in? Was there a point in time where this concept was introduced into the world? By what means did this concept take root in the minds of men......and WOMEN TOO Scarlett O? !! :laugh:

As always, Scriptural evidence is most helpful. :thumbs:

 

[Scarlett O.]

Without the law, there is no sin. So... I think that means everyone was saved automatically until the law (10 commandments) came into effect.

There was a law (so to speak) in the Garden of Eden. Don't eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

That law was broken and sin entered the world. The shedding of blood for the atonement of sin began immediately with the skinning of the animals for clothes (by God, Himself) and the sacrifical system. Abel sacrificed animals to God, remember.

Just when did the notion of a coming redeeemer come into play?

Genesis, chapter 3. God told satan that although he would bruise the heel of the "seed of the woman" (Mary) that the "seed of the woman" would crush his (satan's) head. The bruising of the heel is Jesus Christ's death and the crushing of satan's head is Jesus Christ's resurrection and resurrection power and glory.

If all were required to 'have faith' as we, what were they required to have faith in?

They were to have demonstrative faith in God. By that, I mean that in their faith they were to be obedient unto God.

Was there a point in time where this concept was introduced into the world?

Yes. Hebrew 11:4 says that "by faith, Abel offered up a more excellent sacrifice than Cain...."

Abel knew what faith in God was. His parents taught him. How did Adam and Eve know? They had known God, personally and in a way that no other human being ever has since. When they were banished from the Garden and punished for their sins, they saw the love and mercy and grace that God bestowed upon them despite their having to be punished.

Adam and Eve knew what it meant to have to rely upon and trust Almighty God. They taught it to their children. Unfortunately, not all of their children accepted that concept.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Just when did the notion of a coming redeeemer come into play? If all were required to 'have faith' as we, what were they required to have faith in? Was there a point in time where this concept was introduced into the world? By what means did this concept take root in the minds of men......and WOMEN TOO Scarlett O? !! :laugh:

As always, Scriptural evidence is most helpful. :thumbs:

Heb 4:1-3 "WE have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also

Looks pretty Scriptural to me.

 

[LeBuick]

Just when did the notion of a coming redeeemer come into play? If all were required to 'have faith' as we, what were they required to have faith in? Was there a point in time where this concept was introduced into the world? By what means did this concept take root in the minds of men......and WOMEN TOO Scarlett O? !! :laugh:

As always, Scriptural evidence is most helpful. :thumbs:

There are some who teach the hope for the redeemer began here;

Ge 3:22 (KJV) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Depending on your view of Job;

Job 19:25 (KJV) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

 

[Joe]

Without the law, there is no sin. So... I think that means everyone was saved automatically until the law (10 commandments) came into effect.

Sorry, I guess I should have continued but thought it was obvious. Saved automatically through Gods grace and faith in the Messiah.
I was aware of Adam and Eve and the apple, but didn't realize that was called "The Law". Cain, well there you go. Somehow I suppose he knew it was wrong to kill. Maybe through his parents like Scarlett said.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

SO: Genesis, chapter 3. God told satan that although he would bruise the heel of the "seed of the woman" (Mary) that the "seed of the woman" would crush his (satan's) head. The bruising of the heel is Jesus Christ's death and the crushing of satan's head is Jesus Christ's resurrection and resurrection power and glory.

HP: Yes, I agree that in a vague sense there was the mention of a Redeemer, although do you really believe that they understood the real import of that prophesy at that time? If that was all that was needed, why the law as given to the children of Israel with all its detail? What do you see as the purpose of all the ceremonial law if they already understood of a coming Redeemer and all they had to do was repent and have faith in that which they knew? Why the sacrifices and the offerings? Were they just optional, sort of ‘do if you so feel inclined,’ if they had already repented and exercised faith? Could one have a certain hope of eternal life outside of the sacrificial exercises once it was established as partaken of in accordance to the law?

Why sacrifice there in that way? Could one have simply sacrificed at home and played the role of priest themselves as one had repented and exercised faith? Where was the priest for Adam or Cain? Why was not the same specified offerings necessitated for them that say was for the children of Israel?

 

[LeBuick]

HP: Yes, I agree that in a vague sense there was the mention of a Redeemer, although do you really believe that they understood the real import of that prophesy at that time?

Great question and interesting thought, the first I recall this explained in scripture was Isaiah 53 yet that appears to be prophesy. I wonder what was their understanding?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LB: the first I recall this explained in scripture was Isaiah 53 yet that appears to be prophesy. I wonder what was their understanding?

HP: I would appear to me very vague at best. It might have been almost like trying to explain a black hole to a kindergartener.

There has been such a good response from so many thus far. The object of any and all discussions should be to provoke us to thought and study, to facilitate our understanding of even that which we might believe we know to a different level of understanding…... and even possibly gain a new perspective that until now we have not fairly considered.

I am in the process of learning. I believe God uses men (AND WOMEN Scarlett O!) to provoke us to seek a deeper understanding and walk with the Lord.

Many of the topics I, as well as others I am certain, have never really developed a way of communicating to others, nor have had our views so open to the input and questioning of others. This topic is that way with me. I am trusting to gain new insight as we go along with the help of you and the others participating
I have not had the privilege of sitting at the feet of many men and been afforded the opportunity to open up and discuss in depth as we are privileged to do so on this list. I owe a great debt of gratitude on this Thanksgiving Day, yes for this list and the opportunity of discussion among believers it affords.

To all those that are responsible for this list, and have shown much patience and endurance as we work through these issues together, Happy Thanksgiving to all and may God richly bless and reward each of you this special day and in the days and years to come! Thank you from the bottom of my heart!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett O: They were to have demonstrative faith in God. By that, I mean that in their faith they were to be obedient unto God.

HP: Why do you suppose that God would require ‘demonstrative faith in God’ when from every appearance He knows the outcome of our choices beforehand? Any thoughts?