Our God Reigns

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I think Calvinists use terms/concepts differently. They don't seem to make a distinction between God's will and His allowing things like Satan to continue to deceive, etc.

I seem to recall Jesus saying to Peter, "Satan has asked to sift you as wheat." When you couple that with Job, it sounds to me like even satan has to ask permission in order to do anything.

On a more basic level, why would God allow satan (or anyone else, for that matter) to do anything at all unless He plans to use it according to His own good pleasure?

Notice that Joseph said "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good". Joseph did NOT say, "You meant it for evil, but God allowed it for good."

 

[Marcia]

npetreley, I don't disagree with you that Satan has to ask permission. But I do not agree with some who say that God causes people to sin or causes Satan to do things. It is God's will to allow Satan to deceive but that does not mean God is orchestrating it in the sense that he is causing Satan to deceive.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by Marcia:
I think Calvinists use terms/concepts differently. They don't seem to make a distinction between God's will and His allowing things like Satan to continue to deceive, etc.

Jesus said in Matthew 23.37 and Luke 13.34 that he would have wanted to gather those in Jerusalem to him like a hen gathers her chicks but the people were unwilling. Jesus was willing, but they were not. Does this mean Jesus is not in control? No, it does not.

AMEN! That being the biggest problem. Usually not dealing with reality.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Marcia:
npetreley, I don't disagree with you that Satan has to ask permission. But I do not agree with some who say that God causes people to sin or causes Satan to do things. It is God's will to allow Satan to deceive but that does not mean God is orchestrating it in the sense that he is causing Satan to deceive.

The difference is purely academic. If God didn't want satan to deceive anyone, He'd prevent it. I agree that God isn't necessarily pulling satan's strings like a puppet, but:

1. God foreknows all things
2. Satan can't do anything unless God allows him to do it
3. God uses everything to accomplish His will

Example: God MUST have foreknown what would happen in the garden of eden. Therefore if God had not intended for the fall to occur, He would have locked satan out of the garden. So even the fall happened according to God's will. But that's not the same as God reaching into adam and eve's mind and forcing them to sin. It's just that it all happened according to plan.

 

[whatever]

Paul described God as "him who works all things according to the counsel of his will". I believe Paul.

 

[Helen]

To complicate matters, not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will. And the hairs on our head are numbered. That doesn't mean God knows how many hairs we have on our head, but they are numbered according to His will.

Let's go with this for a second. If I then pull out a hair from my head, did God ordain that I pull it out and I had no choice in the matter? Or if I refuse to pull a hair out, am I being disobedient to Him?

 

[Ransom]

Let's go with this for a second. If I then pull out a hair from my head, did God ordain that I pull it out and I had no choice in the matter?

If God ordained that you would pull a hair out, then it was inevitable that you would do so, yes.

God "works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Eph. 1:11). That includes hairs.

Or if I refuse to pull a hair out, am I being disobedient to Him?

If you refuse to pull a hair out, then God ordained that you would not pull a hair out.

Since there is no specific biblical command to pull hairs out, your question concerning obedience is a red herring.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
Let's go with this for a second. If I then pull out a hair from my head, did God ordain that I pull it out and I had no choice in the matter? Or if I refuse to pull a hair out, am I being disobedient to Him?

What Ransom said. What I'd want to know, just out of curiosity, is which number hair you pulled.

 

[Helen]

In other words, there is absolutely nothing any of us do, no matter how small, which is not predestined by God.

1. This definitely makes Him the author of evil, which makes Him certifiably schizophrenic, having a personality disorder in that He orders rebellion against Himself.

2. This makes people far, far worse than animals, who at least have instinct to fall back on. We are automatons. Again, this is strange, for we have imaginations that stretch beyond what we have evidently been predestined to think, do, and say!

In other words, Calvinism is not only anti-biblical, it is internally inconsistent and blatently illogical.

Given all this, it is contradictory for any Calvinist to post here, for there is no possible way any of them can change any of our minds for in their belief system God ordained how each of us would think. So in trying to change any of our minds, they are acting against their own belief system.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Thanks for pointing that out to those who have no choice but to read it, Helen. lol

It is the truth though.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
In other words, there is absolutely nothing any of us do, no matter how small, which is not predestined by God.

1. This definitely makes Him the author of evil, which makes Him certifiably schizophrenic, having a personality disorder in that He orders rebellion against Himself.

2. This makes people far, far worse than animals, who at least have instinct to fall back on. We are automatons. Again, this is strange, for we have imaginations that stretch beyond what we have evidently been predestined to think, do, and say!

In other words, Calvinism is not only anti-biblical, it is internally inconsistent and blatently illogical.

Given all this, it is contradictory for any Calvinist to post here, for there is no possible way any of them can change any of our minds for in their belief system God ordained how each of us would think. So in trying to change any of our minds, they are acting against their own belief system.

Get a good Systematic Theology book (I recommend Grudem) and look up "concurrence" and find out where your logic has gone wrong. Or go read Acts 4:27-28 again.

 

[npetreley]

Ah, the old "if it's predestined we're robots" argument.

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

We are automatons.

That would certainly be true in the case of Arminians. I've never encountered one who didn't fall back on the same tired, canned responses. Automatically, one might say.

 

[Helen]

Again, your mockery shows the weakness of your position.

Why are you posting here if God has ordained everything we will respond with? And, in fact, isn't it a bit awkward for you to be predestined to write what you do here and to be predestined to be here when, according to your theology, it means nothing anyhow for it will not produce any impact at all in anyone's life, as all has already been fore-ordained by God and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

 

[Helen]

Again, if everything you do and say and think and are is predestined by God, and if everything I do and say and think and am is also predestined by God, is He then a God of war and strife and discord? Is He then a God of confusion and hopelessness for the majority?

This is why I am sometimes just about convinced we are not worshiping the same God!

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Helen:
Again, your mockery shows the weakness of your position.

Why are you posting here if God has ordained everything we will respond with?

Because it has been preordained that we post here. We have no choice.

Originally posted by Helen:
And, in fact, isn't it a bit awkward for you to be predestined to write what you do here and to be predestined to be here when, according to your theology, it means nothing anyhow for it will not produce any impact at all in anyone's life, as all has already been fore-ordained by God and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but you obviously have no clue what soteriology you're arguing against. For the gazillionth time, God uses everything, including our sharing the Gospel, to accomplish His will. The fact that the elect will come to Jesus no matter what we do does not excuse disobedience. The fact that God can and will cause His elect to come to Jesus with or without me is actually a great comfort to me - I know you can't understand that - but it is. But the hope that He will use me as part of His plan to bring in the elect brings me even greater joy.

When it comes to mockery, however, nobody tops the free willers. They read plain, black-and-white verses such as "Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will". This verse means nothing less than the fact that NOTHING happens on earth apart from God's will. So what do they do? They argue against God and claim that if this is true, it makes Him the author of sin and makes people automatons. You read right. You are arguing against God, not me. God said that not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from His will. God said that every hair on our head is numbered. I didn't say it. So your beef is with Him, not me.

 

[Ransom]

Helen said:

In other words, there is absolutely nothing any of us do, no matter how small, which is not predestined by God.

You're starting to get it.

Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, "Lord, will you kill an innocent people? Did he not himself say to me, 'She is my sister'? And she herself said, 'He is my brother.' In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this." Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. (Gen. 20:4-6)

The lot is cast into the lap,but its every decision is from the LORD. (Prov. 16:33)

Many are the plans in the mind of a man,but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand. (Prov. 19:21)

The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD;he turns it wherever he will. (Prov. 21:1)

Ah, Assyria, the rod of my anger;
the staff in their hands is my fury!
Against a godless nation I send him,
and against the people of my wrath I command him,
to take spoil and seize plunder,
and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
But he does not so intend,
and his heart does not so think;
but it is in his heart to destroy,
and to cut off nations not a few. . . .
When the Lord has finished all his work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, he[a] will punish the speech of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the boastful look in his eyes. (Isa. 10:5-7, 12)

"Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, 'My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,'
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it. (Isa. 46:8-11)

[A]ll the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, "What have you done?" (Dan. 4:35)

And, of course, we cannot forget the book of Habakkuk, which I will obviously not quote in its entirety. However, broadly speaking the "plot" of Habakkuk is that God sends Assyria as an instrument of judgment against Israel; when the prophet complains, God responds that Assyria's time for judgment will come because of their wickedness in attacking Israel.

1. This definitely makes Him the author of evil, which makes Him certifiably schizophrenic, having a personality disorder in that He orders rebellion against Himself.

Joseph knew that his being sold into slavery was part of God's plan:

As for you [his brothers], you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. (Gen. 50:20)

How could Joseph speak of God's intent, unless he understood that God was the one who orchestrated the events that brought him to rule Egypt? Not only are sinful acts part of God's plan, but they are the tools by which God often accomplishes his purpose.

Arminians seem incapable of understanding the distinction between God being the author of evil, and God making it certain that certain evil acts will happen for his purposes.

In other words, Calvinism is not only anti-biblical, it is internally inconsistent and blatently illogical.

If Calvinism is "anti-biblical," then kindly deal with the Bible verses I have quoted above.

Given all this, it is contradictory for any Calvinist to post here, for there is no possible way any of them can change any of our minds

You should consider becoming a Jesuit, Helen. You certainly have a penchant for the sort of convoluted moral reasoning they are infamous for.

 

[Ransom]

Helen asked:

And, in fact, isn't it a bit awkward for you to be predestined to write what you do here and to be predestined to be here when, according to your theology, it means nothing anyhow for it will not produce any impact at all in anyone's life, as all has already been fore-ordained by God and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

I would find it more awkward to be in your position: asking questions that prove you do not actually understand the doctrines you think you are arguing against.

If all things are fundamentally under God's control, then that means that God is using people to accomplish his purposes. If it was God's plan that Joe Blow were persuaded of a certain point on the BaptistBoard, then it was also God's plan that I be the one who persuaded him of it.

Arguing otherwise would be like arguing that there is no point at swinging at a baseball since I cannot possibly affect whether or not it would be hit. That is absurd, Helen, and so are your ridiculous cavils.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
Again, your mockery shows the weakness of your position.

Why are you posting here if God has ordained everything we will respond with? And, in fact, isn't it a bit awkward for you to be predestined to write what you do here and to be predestined to be here when, according to your theology, it means nothing anyhow for it will not produce any impact at all in anyone's life, as all has already been fore-ordained by God and there is nothing anyone can do about it?

We post here because we are convinced (by Scripture) that God not only ordains the ends (that some will be convinced about His sovereignty and others will not), but also the means (our discussions).

If you come to the end of your life and are not convinced to be a Calvinist, then I will conclude that it was God's will that you continue in your disbelief.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Again, if everything you do and say and think and are is predestined by God, and if everything I do and say and think and am is also predestined by God, is He then a God of war and strife and discord? Is He then a God of confusion and hopelessness for the majority?

This is why I am sometimes just about convinced we are not worshiping the same God!

Again, get a good Systematic Theology book (I recommend Grudem) and look up "concurrence" and find out where your logic has gone wrong. Or better, go read Acts 4:27-28 again. Were Herod and Pilate and the Romans and Jews all automatons? Of course not.

Micah's prophecy said that "disaster has come down from the LORD to the gate of Jerusalem." Does that make the Babylonians His automatons? Of course not.

Instead of making up things about what we Calvinists believe, how about telling me how passages like these fit into your theology? My feeling is that they don't fit into your theology.