Pants Or No Pants

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett O: For example, there are a handful women at my church who have NEVER worn a tailored pants suit to church and never will. They wear pants anywhere else, but not to church. They believe it is a grevious sin before God for a woman to wear pants to church.

They do not have "faith" to believe that is it lawful (OK) to do so. To them, wearing of pants to church is not of faith, it is sin.

I would never "call" them on it or embarrass them about that particular idea. They are my weaker sisters.

HP: With much trepidation I enter into a discussion on this topic. If there ever was a taboo in today’s church world, it is for a man to address clothing. Being that SO brought it up, I feel compelled to look into this issue a bit further.

SO considers those that in this case would not wear a pant suit to church, her “weaker sister.” That may or may not be the case, but for now I will accept her observation. My question to the list is, what, according to the Word of God, might be Scarlett’s obligation to those she considers her weaker sisters?

 

[J. Jump]

They are my weaker sisters.

I personally don't have a problem with it, and I have several brothers that I respect a great deal that hold the opposite view. To me I have yet to see evidence that is convincing to me that women can not wear pants.

However with that said I think it goes to far to say that women and/or men for that matter that do hold that view are "weaker." I don't think someone wanting to be all that God wants them to be are "weaker."

While I don't think that it is appropriate to drink I would call a brother or sister that says its okay in moderation to be "weaker."

 

[billwald]

As Old J. Vernon Magee often said, "I'd look funny wearing my wife's pants."

Outfit in Seattle selling "work kilts." I ain't paying $125 for a miniskirt with tool loops.

 

[Scarlett O.]

HP, you are just hankerin' to get me in a whole boatload of trouble around the BB, aren't you! :laugh: For crying out loud, just don't let my buddies Rufus and James see this thread!!!! :saint:

First of all.....

PANTS OR NO PANTS

Right off the bat, let me tell you this. There is no argument here. If I were to go around with no pants on, my 66-year-old mother would chase me down and yank a kink in my neck like she did when I was a teenager.

I think we should all agree that "no pants" is not a option. :laugh: :thumbs:

HP: With much trepidation I enter into a discussion on this topic.

Brother, there can't be a trepidatious bone in your body if you are going to bring this topic up. HA!

SO considers those that in this case would not wear a pant suit to church, her “weaker sister.”

Occasionally, I wear do not wear pants suits to church, but skirts instead, so let me clarify that statement.

I consider this small handful of women who will wear pants anywhere else, but not to church because they believe that it is sinful (unlawful) to do so my weaker sister. There is a difference in what I just said and what you sum up that I said.

They are "weaker in the faith" as Romans 14 talks because they do not have the faith to understand that "there is nothing unclean of itself" as Paul says.

If it is alright for these women to wear pants on Monday through Saturday (and they do) then what makes it sinful on Sunday? I believe that this legalistic viewpoint makes them "weak" in this particular area.

Does that mean that I am a superior Christian? No. I am MOST assured that there are areas in which I am the weaker sister compared to other Christian women. I am firmly convinced of that.

That may or may not be the case, but for now I will accept her observation. My question to the list is, what, according to the Word of God, might be Scarlett’s obligation to those she considers her weaker sisters?

I call them "weak" in this area based on Romans 14. The Apostle Paul calls people like this "weaker in the faith".

• verse 14 - Paul says that Jesus Christ has pressed upon him that nothing in and of itself is unclean (unlawful), but that there are people who make clean things unclean for themselves. This small group of women have made wearing pants on Sunday an unclean thing (unlawful).

• verses 15 and 16 - Pauls says not to intimidate brothers and sisters who have done this to themselves. If you lord your understanding of what Paul is sayng over weaker Christians by flaunting this clean thing that they believe is unclean in their face, then your good (observing something clean) is as evil. That's why I said that I would never embarrass them about this issue, which I am convinced that have become enslaved to

• verses 17,18, and 19 - Paul says that what is much more important is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. He says that we should edify each other with these things and that if we are serving Christ in this manner we are acceptable to God (whether or not we wear pants or dresses to church).

I called these sisters, "weak", because the Apostle Paul called people who are hung up on issues of uncleanliness where there IS NO uncleanliness as "weaker in the faith".

They are "weak" in this area. But otherwise, they are some fine Christian ladies.

 

[J. Jump]

Scarlett O. thanks for the explanation.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JJ: Scarlett O. thanks for the explanation.

HP: We are busy kindling a fire for a roast. This is no time for excessive kindness. :laugh:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Let's say that the issue is eating meat. If I am convinced that there is nothing unclean, but my brother or sister feels there is, what does Scripture admonish me to do?

If I feel that it is OK for a women to wear pants in a service, yet there are some ‘weaker ones’ that might be offended that do not feel they should wear pants in that setting, does Scripture admonish the stronger sister to take any particular action in such cases?

 

[tinytim]

Right off the bat, let me tell you this. There is no argument here. If I were to go around with no pants on, my 66-year-old mother would chase me down and yank a kink in my neck like she did when I was a teenager.

.

Hey Scarlett, does that mean you went around not wearing pants when you were a teenager?:laugh:

Since you did a good job of explaining the "weaker" statement, I thought I would throw this out to see you squirm....

BTW, I knew what you meant by the "weaker" statement.. when I read that I automatically thought of Romans 14. YOu are right.

 

[tinytim]

Let's say that the issue is eating meat. If I am convinced that there is nothing unclean, but my brother or sister feels there is, what does Scripture admonish me to do?

If I feel that it is OK for a women to wear pants in a service, yet there are some ‘weaker ones’ that might be offended that do not feel they should wear pants in that setting, does Scripture admonish the stronger sister to take any particular action in such cases?

Take your pants off:laugh: Oh, boy... I'm leaving now...

 

[Scarlett O.]

Let's say that the issue is eating meat. If I am convinced that there is nothing unclean, but my brother or sister feels there is, what does Scripture admonish me to do?

The scripture (Romans 14) admonished you do to a couple of things.

And remember, these issues discussed by Paul are not issues that are clearly delineated (such as "don't murder", "don't lie", "do love your neighbor as yourself"). Those matters are settled. There is no discussion there. Our personal feelings have nothing to do with concrete laws of God.

These matters that can be associate with the main idea of Romans 14 are of personal conviction or conscience, if you will. Some Christians eat ham, others don't. Some Christians cook all of their Sunday meals on Saturday as to not "work" on Sunday, some cook when they get home from church. Some Christian women wear pants, others don't. Some drink an occasional glass of wine in the privacy of their home at a meal, others would never do that.

So what does the "stronger" brother do?

• verse 3 - Don't despise the weaker brother for his choice in the matter and the weaker brother isn't to despise the stronger.
• verse 7 - It's not about "us" anyway. It's about pleasing God with the choices we make.
• verse 12 - Worry about your own relationship with God and concentrate on being pleasing to Him, your own self.
• verse 13 - Don't put a stumbling block in the weaker brothers way. If he comes to eat at your house and he doesn't eat ham, then don't serve it to him even if it is your favorite all time meal. Don't try to make his life difficult by being condescending to him. Don't set him up to fail or to look ridiculous in the eyes of others. Don't force him to "defend" himself when all you want to do is make him look silly.
• verse 15 - If you do behave in manner to a "weaker" brother, then that means you don't really love him.
• verse 19 - Seek peace between the two of you.

If I feel that it is OK for a women to wear pants in a service, yet there are some ‘weaker ones’ that might be offended that do not feel they should wear pants in that setting, does Scripture admonish the stronger sister to take any particular action in such cases?

The same rules apply that I just told you.

• Don't judge them for being weaker. Don't despise their convictions.
• Focus on my own relationship with God and seek to please Him and don't seek to "prove" them wrong.
• Never put them in a position where they have to "defend" their belief about dresses and never draw attention to them to make them look weak.
• Love them like the sisters that they are.
• Seek to work for the cause of Christ with them and in peace.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Scarlett O: The same rules apply that I just told you.

• Don't judge them for being weaker. Don't despise their convictions.
• Focus on my own relationship with God and seek to please Him and don't seek to "prove" them wrong.
• Never put them in a position where they have to "defend" their belief about dresses and never draw attention to them to make them look weak.
• Love them like the sisters that they are.
• Seek to work for the cause of Christ with them and in peace.

HP: An excellent post I might add. There is enough fodder there to have a whole series of messages on. The one thought that you expounded on with meats, was not carried over in the same vein with the pants issue as I see it.

Let me just ask you. If you knew you were going to be worshipping together with these ‘weaker sisters,’ would it be proper, and in keeping with love towards them, for you to refrain from wearing pants when worshipping together, so as not to encourage them to be tempted to violate their conscience or detract from worship for either of you? Could you worship together just as well in a skirt as in pants? Just asking.

Let me go one step farther. IF one felt they should not wear pants in a worship service, what might be their reasoning for feeling that way?

Have I started meddling yet?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Hey Scarlett, does that mean you went around not wearing pants when you were a teenager?

"Where is my frying pan.....someone needs a konk on the head!"

:laugh: :laugh: Don't worry tinytim.......I am a feminist. I don't even own a frying pan.

No, I didn't walk around sans-britches......perhaps my sentence structure was misleading. But I was a smart-mouth to my mother and somewhat rebellious. I received many kinks in neck from a Godly mother who wouldn't let me get away with anything. And boy did I try! :saint:

 

[tinytim]

"Where is my frying pan.....someone needs a konk on the head!"

:laugh: :laugh: Don't worry tinytim.......I am a feminist. I don't even own a frying pan.

No, I didn't walk around sans-britches......perhaps my sentence structure was misleading. But I was a smart-mouth to my mother and somewhat rebellious. I received many kinks in neck from a Godly mother who wouldn't let me get away with anything. And boy did I try! :saint:

I know what you meant.. I was just giving you a hard time...

BTW, one time my mom bent an aluminum frying pan over my head... she still has it.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Let me just ask you. If you knew you were going to be worshipping together with these ‘weaker sisters,’ would it be proper, and in keeping with love towards them, for you to refrain from wearing pants when worshipping together, so as not to encourage them to be tempted to violate their conscience or detract from worship for either of you? Could you worship together just as well in a skirt as in pants? Just asking.

I have worn dresses to a relative few occasions when I didn't want to, when I knew that I had suits that were just as tailored and nice as their dresses, but I know that there might be two or three sisters who would be more concerned with my wearing a pants suit than the importance of the occasion. But that doesn't happen very often.

And I like dresses. It's isn't a matter of taste, but comfort-level.

And I will confess to you, HP, since you brought it up. There have been times when I could have just as easily put on a dress as pants and purposely did NOT, just to prove a point. And that is sinful according to Romans 14.

But I don't see in Romans 14 where one is required to give up their personal convictions to appease the weaker. One is just required not to despise them or put up a stumbling block.

Let me go one step farther. IF one felt they should not wear pants in a worship service, what might be their reasoning for feeling that way?

Have I started meddling yet?

I can only express my opinion, but I think that it is because Christians get hung up on traditions of mankind and make the humanly traditional to become the standard by which they measure holiness.

Women (and men) are to dress respectfully and modestly. That's holy.

Women being forced to or bullied into wearing only dresses by making it a "legality" is a tradition of mankind. At one point, as very popular tradition.

Human traditions = Holiness? Not in my book.

 

[J. Jump]

But I don't see in Romans 14 where one is required to give up their personal convictions to appease the weaker.

It may not be Romans 14, but I think Scripture is quite clear that if something that you hold as okay is done in front of someone that doesn't and it causes them to stumble, then you will have to answer for it. So, yes I think there are times when we are asked to give up something that "we" are okay with when in the presence of someone that might be caused to stumble.

 

[Scarlett O.]

It may not be Romans 14, but I think Scripture is quite clear that if something that you hold as okay is done in front of someone that doesn't and it causes them to stumble, then you will have to answer for it. So, yes I think there are times when we are asked to give up something that "we" are okay with when in the presence of someone that might be caused to stumble.

Ah, but Mr. Jump, isn't that more about giving up a personal conviction to please God by not causing the weaker to stumble, than doing so to simply to appease the weaker brother who stumbles over every grain of sand?

I agree that causing someone to stumble is grievous.

But catering to the opinions of the weaker to merely satisfy them is not edifying to the stronger brother or to the weaker. It makes the weaker brother self-righteous and the stronger brother ineffective due to constant fear of hurting people's feelings.

However, giving up a personal conviction in obedience to God to keep the weaker from sinning is edification in its best definition.

There's a difference between appeasing the weaker brother and protecting him.

 

[J. Jump]

However, giving up a personal conviction in obedience to God to keep the weaker from sinning is edification in its best definition.

That's the ONLY reason it should be done. And no I don't think that if one wears a dress to church so as not to cause another to stumble is making the "weak" weaker, but I believe it to be you showing your love to your fellow sister, just to use the pants example.

For another example there are some that think it is not right to have a nativity scene. I should think nothing of removing my nativity scene if I know a brother or sister is coming over that has an issue with that and it might cause them to stumble.

There are many examples that could be used, but we shouldn't think twice about giving up something in order to help a brother or sister.

I'm not sure what wearing a pair of pants is going to do to further any cause, when the matter is as simple as putting on a dress instead.

 

[Scarlett O.]

There are many examples that could be used, but we shouldn't think twice about giving up something in order to help a brother or sister.

Yes, I agree with this 100%. It's not about us anyway.
It's about the body of Christ loving each other. :1_grouphug:

I'm not sure what wearing a pair of pants is going to do to further any cause, when the matter is as simple as putting on a dress instead.

Ha! Spoken by one who has never worn a dress.

Ok, J.J., - Now you're just meddlin'! :laugh:

Are Rufus and James over at your house? Did they make you say that? :laugh:

(Rufus and James, if you are reading any of this, I'm just kidding!)

Good discussion everybody....and good night. :sleeping_2:

 

[J. Jump]

Ha! Spoken by one who has never worn a dress.

Now you don't know that to be true.


Okay it's true. To my knowledge I have never worn a dress. Don't want to get any rumors started :laugh:.

 

[Dustin]

Pants or No Pants?


Depends on how hot it is.



Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin