Pastor: 'New Calvinists' Lack Passion for Holiness, Missions

[Jerome]

Pastor Says New Calvinism Giving Short Shrift to Missions

Conference speaker suggested the 'monergism' notion has inspired scruples against human effort in personal holiness and evangelization.

Another speaker noted how they were tragically neglecting global missions.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Pastor Says New Calvinism Giving Short Shrift to Missions

Conference speaker suggested the 'monergism' notion has inspired scruples against human effort in personal holiness and evangelization.

Another speaker noted how they were tragically neglecting global missions.

Makse sense to me.

 

[12strings]

A longer quote from the same article:

“People say sanctification, is it monergistic or synergistic? I just want to say that's not the right discussion for those terms,” he said. “As with regeneration, we believe in monergism, the Bible teaches that it is one working, it is God at work to regenerate. And in the Christian life, to believe and to repent and to grow in grace, you hear even from these luminaries like Calvin and Hodge [who were] not ashamed to say 'we put forth effort, we cooperate.'”

DeYoung said it is not an issue of divine sovereignty versus free will. “Who sanctifies you?” he asked. “God, as he works in me and I work out.”

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A longer quote from the same article:

Yeah, a Catholic Says that and its called a works based theology when in actuality that is all we're saying.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Yeah, a Catholic Says that and its called a works based theology when in actuality that is all we're saying.

That is so true! :laugh:

 

[12strings]

Yeah, a Catholic Says that and its called a works based theology when in actuality that is all we're saying.

This is from the website: www.defendingthecatholicfaith.com (this is a Catholic person writing about what the Catholic church believes and why):

...Do Catholics believe that the good works they do will get them into Heaven? Catholics do believe that works will get them to Heaven accompanied by faith and God's grace.

And from the Counsel of Trent:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

They are not saying the same thing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is from the website: www.defendingthecatholicfaith.com (this is a Catholic person writing about what the Catholic church believes and why):



And from the Counsel of Trent:



They are not saying the same thing.

I don't know if you have a problem reading the KJB because of old english but all that bolded part is saying is that you cannot be cleansed and continue to live a life of sin and not partake in our sanctification and expect salvation. Part of the reason we are "saved" to begin with is for our sanctification. Our salvation doesn't allow sin to have free reign in our lives. I expect modern english to be better suited to your reading. So pick up a Catachism and actually read the thing.

and in fact each canon you quoted is saying more to that effect. Like faith without actions is dead. So on and so forth. Basically, the Catholic faith is about sanctification and is saying the same thing. You just like to try to pick and choose. You got to understand what terms mean.

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know if you have a problem reading the KJB because of old english but all that bolded part is saying is that you cannot be cleansed and continue to live a life of sin and not partake in our sanctification and expect salvation. Part of the reason we are "saved" to begin with is for our sanctification. Our salvation doesn't allow sin to have free reign in our lives. I expect modern english to be better suited to your reading. So pick up a Catachism and actually read the thing.

and in fact each canon you quoted is saying more to that effect. Like faith without actions is dead. So on and so forth. Basically, the Catholic faith is about sanctification and is saying the same thing. You just like to try to pick and choose. You got to understand what terms mean.

Looks like grace and works to me!

death of Christ buys a catholic, thru the sacrament of water Baptism, a probationary period, type of temp eternal life, and up to how one lives his life, by partaking of the merits of the sacraments and his goosd works, to allow the Lord to judge him as worthy enough to be finally eternally saved...

 

[Thinkingstuff]

In fact let me break it down for you what Catholics actually believe.

1708 By his Passion, Christ delivered us from Satan and from sin. He merited for us the new life in the Holy Spirit. His grace restores what sin had damaged in us.

1709 He who believes in Christ becomes a son of God. This filial adoption transforms him by giving him the ability to follow the example of Christ. It makes him capable of acting rightly and doing good.

With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator...Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification

question? Can we then forget the new life given us and continue in our sin just because we once believed with out taking on the mantel of new life? No. And that is where your canon's of trent come in because protestants were saying all you had to do is believe and you're guaranteed heaven in which case you don't have to give up your sinful lifestyle. Paul says God Forbid as does Trent in each canon you quoted. That is the context. So in essense yes we are saying the same thing.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Looks like grace and works to me!

death of Christ buys a catholic, thru the sacrament of water Baptism, a probationary period, type of temp eternal life, and up to how one lives his life, by partaking of the merits of the sacraments and his goosd works, to allow the Lord to judge him as worthy enough to be finally eternally saved...

It is no different then what Deyoung is saying in this quote

DeYoung said it is not an issue of divine sovereignty versus free will. “Who sanctifies you?” he asked. “God, as he works in me and I work out.”

Its saying the same thing. And the only difference between what you are saying and What Catholics say is this You are saying "that person was never born again to begin with though he made a proclimation of Faith" and the Catholic is saying "he never had faith" or if he did since no one apart from God knows another man's heart "he threw away his faith" Its not grace and works but as James says of Abraham Faith is completed by his actions.

 

[webdog]

James never says our works "complete" our faith. Our works confirm our faith. Night and day difference. Your doctrine frustrates grace.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

James never says our works "complete" our faith. Our works confirm our faith. Night and day difference. Your doctrine frustrates grace.

UH yeah he does.

Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did

Clear as the nose on your face or should I say egg?

In other words your faith is revealed by what you do. So it doesn't "frustrated the doctrine of grace" it compliments the doctrine of sanctification. And if you read my quotes of the CCC you would know that God enables us by his grace to live sanctified lives.

If you live in sin you show your lack of faith. I show by what I do what my faith actually is.

 

[webdog]

UH yeah he does.
Clear as the nose on your face or should I say egg?

Beg the question, are we?

In other words your faith is revealed by what you do. So it doesn't "frustrated the doctrine of grace" it compliments the doctrine of sanctification.

You first need to understand the difference between justification and sanctification in order to understand grace.

And if you read my quotes of the CCC you would know that God enables us by his grace to live sanctified lives.

Never said differently.

If you live in sin you show your lack of faith. I show by what I do what my faith actually is.

No, if you live in sin you are living accoding to the flesh and not the Spirit, something true believers are warned against by Paul.

 

[TCassidy]

As I recently responded in another venue regarding a similar statement by a young pastor:

The young man's criticism is overly broad and non-specific. It also seems to be just a bit condescending. Are there people in our churches who are not Spirit filled and Spirit led and not concerned with holiness and missions? Of course. Is it the norm? I tend to think not. I am an old man. I have been involved in ministry for over 50 years. One of the dangers for young men is to assume their experiences equate to the norm. As we grow older we realize that we don't know nearly as much as we thought we did.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, if you live in sin you are living accoding to the flesh and not the Spirit, something true believers are warned against by Paul.

So you are basically saying that Paul doesn't prefer that we live in sin but either sinful lives or sanctified lives we're all good? All it means is we are either flesh centered or spirit centered but ok in God's eyes? I don't think you understand why Paul warned against sinful living. Nor does it seem you understand the seriousness of sin. Paul says

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. 7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God...You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ..

And here is where the total results of living according to the flesh or sin results in according to Paul and why Paul warns Christians not to do so

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

It is clear the call to Sanctification and Holiness is not just prefered but required by Christians. Otherwise their sinful lifestyles will lead to death.

It is also clear in this passage that those who live in sin do not have faith as they are not living by the Spirit and do not belong to God. So I stand by my statement

If you live in sin you show your lack of faith. I show by what I do what my faith actually is.

 

[preacher4truth]

Yeah, a Catholic Says that and its called a works based theology when in actuality that is all we're saying.

You've completely missed the point.

Again.

Was he talking about sanctification/holiness of the believer, or about salvation? :wavey:

That's right, he is talking sanctification of the believer, not salvation.

You are correct that Catholicism is called a works based religion, as this is true.

But being a Catholic you intertwine these two and make salvation works based, and so goes your entire system with its works as a basis to salvation intermixed with sacerdotalism, unBiblical sacraments, celibate priesthood which is unbiblical (an open door for pedophiles), nuns which is an unbiblical office, relics that are unbibilcal ('holy' water for instance) and many other idolatrous practices. These are things you attempt to deny but the elephant is still in the room.

Drop all of these things and trust in Christ alone. They are unbiblical practices that you cannot live without because they are your comfort.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You've completely missed the point.

We need to be clear about one thing. I never ever miss a point.

Was he talking about sanctification/holiness of the believer, or about salvation? :wavey:

He's talking about sanctification as was I and all the quotes I put in from the Catachism. You need to keep up. How many times have I told you and others here that most of what we are talking about when it comes to Catholicism has to do with Sanctification not attonment. Catholics never claim to earn salvation of their own accord. However by help of Grace Catholics attempt to live sanctified lives as is our duty and call by God.

That's right, he is talking sanctification of the believer, not salvation.

I never said otherwise. You keep placing on the Church something it doesn't believe.

You are correct that Catholicism is called a works based religion, as this is true.

No this is absolutely false.

But being a Catholic you intertwine these two and make salvation works based,

Nope salvation is never works based. God saves us. We can't save ourselves. Once we are saved we can cooperate with God's grace and please him by our obedience. But that is not earning salvation. You're the one confusing what Catholics are saying.

and so goes your entire system with its works as a basis to salvation intermixed with sacerdotalism, unBiblical sacraments, celibate priesthood which is unbiblical (an open door for pedophiles), nuns which is an unbiblical office, relics that are unbibilcal ('holy' water for instance) and many other idolatrous practices. These are things you attempt to deny but the elephant is still in the room.

Again you are wrong on all counts. All counts. all the Sacraments can be found in scripture. Paul speaks to Church leaders being celebate and in fact for all christians who choose celebacy. Celebacy does not open the door to pedophilia the sexual revolution and sin did that. Nuns aren't an office, relics have nothing to do with salvation and so the elephant is in your own imaginings.

Drop all of these things and trust in Christ alone

Catholics do trust in Christ alone. Not some ceberal belief that isn't followed up by lifestyle. We believe faith is more than intellectual assent as you do.

They are unbiblical practices that you cannot live without because they are your comfort.

Again false. You scored an F on your catholic knowledge. Stop reading the propaganda and get to the truth.

 

[billwald]

See for yourselves how Dutch Calvinists put their money where their mouths are:

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Regional: All Ontario Youth Convention
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[billwald]

>Calvinism, named after 16th century reformer John Calvin, emphasizes God’s sovereignty and downplays human agency in salvation.

Don't think the writer ever read what Calvin emphasized. Read it for yourselves:

http://www.reformed.org/master/index.html?mainframe=/books/institutes/

>If God is involved in both choosing the elect and prompting the human heart to respond in faith, DeYoung said, some assume that striving to live godly lives isn’t that important.

ASSUMES facts not in evidence!


>“The call to Christian preaching should never be to make people better or virtuous or moral apart from the power of the spirit and the truth of the gospel and the centrality of faith,” he said. On the other hand: “The realities of the Spirit and the faith do not eliminate the need for human effort. Do not let effort be a four-letter word in your Christian vocabulary.”

On the other hand, neither will posting the Ten Commandments in public places and passing "Christian" morality laws "make people better or virtuous or moral apart from the power of the spirit and the truth of the gospel and the centrality of faith . . . .”

 

[pilgrim_99]

I'm not sure that the article, particularly the headline, is quite accurate, especially with regard to missions. ABP does some good reporting at times but let's not forget that it is essentially the mouthpiece of the CBF.

Regarding the SBC and similar groups, it seems to me that it's the Calvinists (along with some others, to be sure) who are making the big push for foreign missions, with many non-Calvinists often arguing that we mustn't neglect ministry here at home, etc. The "Great Commission Resurgence" in the SBC was seen by some as at least in part a "Calvinist takeover" as well as a megachurch takeover. The big emphasis with that is cutting out perceived bureaucratic waste and directing more resources toward foreign missions. A renewed focus on foreign missions, especially the effort to mobilize local churches, (and not just be content to send $$ to the CP, often never even meeting a missionary) is arguably one of the differences between the "New Calvinism" and the "Old Calvinism."

Now with regard to personal holiness, IMO those who would question the New Calvinists in that regard have a point, although not necessarily quite accurately depending on who is making the criticism. There are the Driscoll types of course, but there is also a pernicious teaching that DeYoung addresses here in particular that teaches a very quietistic model of sanctification that decries any effort on the believer's part with regard to personal holiness.

But overall, I've found Calvinists, generally speaking, to have a higher emphasis on holiness than many others. To give one example, with few exceptions they are the ones that emphasize church discipline in cases of egregious sin whereas the non-Calvinist (often Semi-Pelagian) ministries who focus almost exclusively on obtaining decisions too often just look the other way with regard to even notorious and public sin in their midst. (That's not to say, of course, that no non-Calvinist ministries emphasize healthy churches, meaningful church membership and discipline when necessary.)

There's much more to holiness than "We don't drink, smoke or chew and we don't go with girls that do."