Larry, I appreciate you taking the time to respond, friend. However, many of my questions went unanswered. I will respond to your general observations, however:
First, to blame the incompetence of a search committee or deacons is really irrelevant.
I wholly disagree. If the search committee is not competent enough to read the information found in the report, what makes anyone think they'll be competent enough to do anything with it?
It would not be difficult to do as Hardsheller suggested. Compared to the money you would pay a pastor, paying a CPA or some such is a drop in the bucket.
I don't disagree in theory. I do disagree that churches would be willing to pay a CPA the $200-$400 necessary to do what is being asked. Even if it's half that amount, churches I have consulted with on pastoral searches (Not churches I've candidated with, though I'd include them, too) are just hesitant to spend money like this.
I don't think comparing assets and liabilities is the way to go. I don't think assets are that big of a deal.
I wholly disagree. If a man has no debt, for instance, but his bank statement shows an ADB of $50, then that man is living on the brink of financial disaster and no credit report would show this. Also, why just look at a credit report? What about a CheckScan, which shows bounced checks? Someone can have a trimerge of 800 but not be able to open a bank account anywhere because they are -$250 in the hole at a community bank/credit union.
The church doesn't need to know the total financial picture.
I wholly disagree. Your credit score is one piece of the puzzle. I personally believe a man is not "managing his household well" if he's not saving for retirement, have adequate emergency savings or does not have adequate term life insurance coverage for his family should God take Him early. These are sins equal to being in too much debt, IMHO.
An unqualified person can look at a credit report and see what credit card balances are, what payment history is, if there are collections, etc.
I disagree. With my background, I can. When I sit down with clients and go over their credit reports, most often, I get puzzled looks as if I've just handed them a jigsaw puzzle. I am not saying it
should be this way. I'm just saying it is what it is.
As for moderate revolving debt and credit scores,...
and what would "moderate" be? Again, we're not quantifying what we're looking for here.
if you see a guy with 20K in revolving debt with no late payments, and you know what your salary package is, you can tell very quickly whether or not he can manage it.
A somewhat fair point. However, maybe the wife will work, too. I can't see a church using this as a total disqualifier. (Interestingly, if a man has 20K in revolving debt with no lates, based on scoring models, he could have a higher FICO than a man who has 5k in debt with no lates. Pct of debt to limit plays in as well. I've seen people pay off and close credit cards and see their scores
drop.)
Furthermore, when you see a guy in unpaid revolving debt, you want to know what it is for.
Fair point.
In many (if not most) cases, revolving debt is incurred by people living beyond their means. You don't want a pastor who does that. The general rule is If you can't pay for it, then don't buy it.
I disagree mildly. Some people are able to use cc debt well. For instance, we use one for emergencies and occasional purchases that are not (just to keep our credit scores up). We rarely carry a balance. However, there are days that our tri-merge would show more debt than is really there. However, we
never use cc's for meals, entertainment, gas, groceries, etc. Financing a tie or a pizza or a tank of gas? Please.....We wear out our debit cards for things like this, though.
to suggest that credit scores may be inaccurate
I won't suggest it. I'll say it. Studies have shown that as high as 80% of credit reports have errors
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/12/earlyshow/contributors/raymartin/main648887.shtml
I'm in the middle of a fight right now because I have two medical bills on my credit report than have been paid for years. However, the hospital was in the middle of an acquisition and outsourcing of its billing dept, and they did not report that the bill was paid, so the matter went to a collector. (save your receipts or print your checkscans if you don't get cancelled checks anymore, people). I also just finished a protracted fight to get a bill taken off that wasn't mine. And it's commong knowledge in the financial services industry that credit bureaus are just notoriously lax in compliance with FDCPA and FCRA. Once again, I urge everyone to check their credit reports....
...that you can't evaluate liquidity...
I believe it can be done by the right people...
...that deacons might have problems...
I don't recall bringing this up. Someone else may have.
...that churches may have financial problems....
Again, I don't recall bringing that up. Some churches are indeed poorly financially managed, but that's another issue. (Always ask for financials when you candidate at a church. I know a man who walked into a church that was head-over-heels in debt and behind on its bills, but didn't know, until months later when his health insurance was cancelled because the treasurer didn't pay the bill....
A credit score is a good way to tell if a man is a lover of money and one way to tell if he has a good report with those outside.
What about a man who has four flat screen tvs, all the latest gizmos, but a high tri-merge? Isn't he a lover of money?
I don't think it's the best way. I don't even think it's a really good way. But I am not opposed to churches examining the financial fitness of a man, so long as this is not exalted above the other qualifications of 1 Tim 3 or Titus 1.
These are qualification issues and asking a man, "Do you handle money well" won't get at the answer.
I agree completely. I just think a credit report isn't the
bene esse of answering the question, either. It's a piece of the puzzle that could be used by properly trained folks. I think this is our biggest area of disagreement, friend. You seem to be arguing that a credit score is the be all, end all. I just disagree with this.
All pastor search committees need to do a better job at screening candidates, and churches should do a better job at screening their pastor search committees :thumbs: All pastors and all Christians should do a better job at being good stewards.
And accounting has little to do with it (although some) but a knowledge of finance and economics. Again, most people are unaware of how closing credit card accounts hurt your scores under most models, for example.