pastors and deacons

Jim,
You are right about the offices. There are some Baptist churches in our area (SBC) that are going to an elder form of government.

 

Jim

Baptist groups (especially those around the SBC orbit) have changed drastically over the last 3 decades.

IMHO. I still like the 2 office view.

 

2 offices, yes....but "pastors, bishops and elders" are a different office than "deacon".

"deacons" ought to be men of good standing in the church, but they have no authority. Whereas "pastor/bishop/elder" signifies some sort of authority.

 

Jim,

perhaps then there is the reason we don't seem to be communicating this issue well. That is a significant difference in how we see deacons.

Pastors are not supposed to be "transient", they are supposed to stay and pastor their church. Our deacons change every three years (at least in my church, other churches have different timelines), and they are voted in or approved by the congregation.

Biblically, the deacons had no decision-making powers in the churches. That was all up to the elder/bishop/pastors.

 

The pastors have all of the decision-making powers except appointing deacons? I don't get it.

 

Maybe I should start another thread, but since "transient" pastors has been introduced, just how transient is a pastor to be in thise churches where the pastor leads the assembly?

I know some pastors seem to be likened to evangelists in that they leave their flock to other preachers in the church as if "they are trusted and need the practice" while the pastor goes about preaching mission conferences and revivals as to supplement his income.

Maybe I am wrong, but the idea of a pastor is not to be the "president" of the church, but the pastor who shepherds the sheep?

I know many pastors who say they don't get "too involved' with their members using the excuse in not visiting them at their homes saying, "Some people don't want the preacher to come to their house and he should always be invited first". But what about being the undershepherd of the Over Shepherd?

Maybe I got pastoring all wrong, but I thought a shepherd/pastor was to tend to his sheep and be the vinedresser of his own vineyard and not a politician going about shearing other pastors' sheep and tending other vineyards?:flower:

 

I'm not familiar with Loan Oak, KY, but the churches in Louisville that I know that are SBC w/ Elders are not "an elder form of government" if by that you mean the elders make all the decisions. My church has elders and deacons and church meeting with congregational votes to decide the path of the church. The elders recommend things from time to time, but have yet to have them force something on the church.

 

Jerome, that is not what I said...at least it is not what I meant to say. The deacons are people chosen from the congregation to act as servers in the church, and in most they also act as a group that advises the pastor/s in decisions. Our congregation has a voting process for the deacons, but they are men brought before the congregation by the pastor. If any individual has a problem with any of the men mentioned, they are free to go to the pastor and let him know. He then considers the problem.
A wise pastor will not make all decisions purely on his own....he will get counsel and advice from many different sources. But, this fact does not impart "authority" to those places where he gets counsel.

 

"preach yourself out of a job"? I don't know how anyone would even think that that was possible.

What happened to staying and being a part of the church? Of course I would think a pastor could call the church "HIS church", just like I call it MY church. Thats like saying I can't say "MY body" because Im saved and I belong to God now.

My pastor (yes, he's married and belongs to another woman, and yet I call him MY pastor) has been at our church for about 15 years now and still goin' strong. IF a man is willing to take the hardships and the heartaches along with the accolades than he will stay on and love on the people that God has given him charge over. MHO

 

This kind of sounds like the arguments made for ordaining homosexuals and women.

 

How is the label/title distinction practiced?

Since we use the Greek-derived word deacon rather than the common English word servant, for consistency's sake, why not use presbyter rather than elder? (or vice versa)

 

what difference does it make either way? The two offices are defined by their jobs....no matter what word we use to label the "office".

A pastor/bishop/elder/overseer is supposed to be a man who leads, has decision-making powers, cares for the people (which he can't do if he doesn't know them), and is responsible for teaching, exhorting, rebuking, discipling, etc.

A deacon, in the role of deacon, would do the physical things that widows in the church are unable to do for themselves, and basically do whatever things the pastor needs done. Since the pastor cannot be in multiple places at once, he has helpers/servants/deacons to aid him.

 

The elders make some decisions and the congregation makes others. Our church only has deacons and a pastor. All matters are voted on by the congregation. If elders in the churches where you live do not help govern, what is their purpose?

 

every member of a church "helps govern". We all have a vote in many matters that come before the congregation.

but a deacon's main role is not in governing. Their main role is service. Our deacons mow lawns, shovel snow, serve the Lord's Supper to the rest of the congregation, make sure the widows are cared for, and then also serve as a "sounding board" for the pastor when he needs some advice or counsel on larger matters of the church.

 

None of which are listed as duties for a deacon in the bible. There are no deacons in Acts 6 so don't show me that.

These are familial duties. Deacons, or anyone else in the church for that matter, should not be doing these things unless there is lack of family support. That's why the bible talks about "widows indeed". If a widow has sons, or a brother, or a father, or any other capable relative, or has sufficient resources to hire; then it does not fall on the church to do these type of things.