Pastors

[Eliyahu]

There is no such thing as the word "office" in the NT. What you have given is the same word twice, both meaning "bishop,' or "overseer." There is no office. That word was put in there by the KJV translators who were bound by ecclesiastical political correctness of the time. Look at another translation that is more accurate in this passage of Scripture:

1 Timothy 3:1 The word is faithful: if any one aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work.

1 Timothy 3:10 And let these be first proved, then let them minister, being without charge against them.

1 Timothy 3:13 for those who shall have ministered well obtain for themselves a good degree, and much boldness in faith which is in Christ Jesus.

These are the three verses in the KJV that use the word "office" in this chapter. The above verses are taken from the Darby translation. Notice that the word "office" is not used. There is no such word as "office" in the Greek. The Greek word "diakonos" means servant, and its derivatives mean to minister or service. There is no such thing as an office of a deacon. That is a mistake, a misnomer of today's pastoral theology. It is not found in the Bible.
--Deacons minister; they serve; they don't hold an office. To assume such is a mistake.

1. First of all I mentioned the different Strong Numbers for the Episkopes and Episkopos. Apparently the conjugation means the modification of the meanings. I do respect Darby's translation on this issue, but we can understand that he expressed such a meaning by " to Exercise the Oversight" which is different from " Overseer".

We notice the Office of Overseer in KJV, NKJV, Third Millennium, Webster, NASB. You may exclude Third Millennium as the same as KJV, but NKJV is another version different from KJV though it may be similar to KJV, then Webster use Office. NASB is an Accurate Translation based on wrong texts ( Alexandrian Minority) IMO but it says " Office of Overseer.

So, KJV is not alone in expressing Office. NIV's Being an Overseer indicates the meaning of Office too.

Episkopes and Episkopos are different noun forms, then what are the meanings? Read the Lexicon and find the difference there. I believe any Lexicons would differentiate the two words as Strong has different numbers for the two words.

2. As for Deacons, Diakonia has been often used for MInistry( different from Diakonos of Deacon), and it is difficult to distinguish it from others. We can understand that the Bible used the verb forms to express the cases, therefore we can hardly find the separate word for the office itself. However, we can notice this:

Eph 4:12 - (Gifts are given) for the work of the ministry.
Here, Ministry means virtually the Office, either for Deacon or for Elder.

1 Cor 12:5 - differences of administrations ( diakoniown) - this may indicate the offices as well. ( you may say it is the gift of administering)

Col 4:17 And say to Archippus, take heed to the ministry which thou hast received in the Lord.
In this case, I believe the Ministry means the Office.
( you may say this is the Mission or missionary)

3. However what we can clearly understand about the Offices as a whole is found here:

Philippians 1:1

Paul and Timotheus, the servant of Jesus Christ, to all the Saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the Bishops( Overseers) and Deacons.

1) Where is the Pastor gone? Isn't this remarkable as the Pastors are so important in today's churches?

2) Where is any verse which equates the Pastor with the Overseer?

3) Why does Paul mention no other titles than Overseers and Deacons in the single church Philippi?

4) Why does Paul instruct Titus to Ordain Elders in every city, not the Pastors? ( Titus 1:5), then why does he mention the qualification of Overseer again starting from verse 6 and then in verse 7 a Bishop must be.....?

4. Peter mentioned himself as an Elder ( 1 Pet 5:1), John explained himself as an Elder ( 2 John 1). I have already explained the Equation of Elders and Overseer mentioned in Acts 20:17 and 20:28.
Could we notice any early church members with the title of Pastor?

 

[Eliyahu]

rsr said:

No, your letter is a hoax. A fabrication. A lie. All you have is an Internet reference supposedly translated from a journal that no one can find. What I supplied is an authenticated letter (there are three of them) from an official archive.

Are you a Supreme Court Judge?
Authenticated by whom?
Whose Archive? was it from White House or State Dept?

 

[DHK]

1. First of all I mentioned the different Strong Numbers for the Episkopes and Episkopos. Apparently the conjugation means the modification of the meanings. I do respect Darby's translation on this issue, but we can understand that he expressed such a meaning by " to Exercise the Oversight" which is different from " Overseer".


So, KJV is not alone in expressing Office. NIV's Being an Overseer indicates the meaning of Office too.

What you are doing is inserting an modern day definition of the word "office" into a context that used to use a meaning of office that is no longer common, if not even known to the general public today. Words change meaning overtime. Look up "conversation" in Phil.3:20: "Our "conversation" is in heaven. What does that mean? I'll let you do the research. Most people would never know the meaning of that Old English word unless they had some help from the Greek or other reference material.

The word "office" in the KJV, and the mindless copying of it in following translations, is not in the Greek. Secondly, it has nothing to do with "the holding of any position. The word office simply has to do with "service" and nothing more. It would be more accurately rendered "the service of a bishop."
We have other examples of the same type of changes in the English language.

Look at the verse: "The son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Can we all agree that the word "minster" here means serve. Christ did not come so that people could serve him but that he could serve others, and ultimately give his life for us.

Now in our government we have many that hold the "office" of "ministers." The minister of defence, the minister of foreign affairs, the minister of fnance, etc. These are now called "offices." But they didn't use to be thought of "offices" in the same way that we think of an office today. The word "minister" means "servant". And back in the days of Abraham Lincoln men that held these positions were humble enough to know that they were privileged enough to "serve" their nation. It was a place of service. It was a privilege of service, not a right to office. There is a difference.
The same is true today in the local church. The position of a pastor is not an office per se, It is a calling. It is a privilege of service to be taken with all humility of mind and contrite spirit. It is not an office to boast of. Likewise that of a deacon. It is not an "office" as we know the meaning of office today. The meanin of office has changed. It is the same as service and simply means servant, as the word diakonos, and its variants indicate. To insert the Old English meaning of an modern day word into the text is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[PastorGreg]

There is no Biblical authority for a "head pastor".

bmerr

What about Acts 15:19? Paul and Barnabas were there. Peter was there. The elders and the rest of the apostles were there, but one man made the decision.

 

[Eliyahu]

What you are doing is inserting an modern day definition of the word "office" into a context that used to use a meaning of office that is no longer common, if not even known to the general public today. Words change meaning overtime. Look up "conversation" in Phil.3:20: "Our "conversation" is in heaven. What does that mean? I'll let you do the research. Most people would never know the meaning of that Old English word unless they had some help from the Greek or other reference material.

The word "office" in the KJV, and the mindless copying of it in following translations, is not in the Greek. Secondly, it has nothing to do with "the holding of any position. The word office simply has to do with "service" and nothing more. It would be more accurately rendered "the service of a bishop."
We have other examples of the same type of changes in the English language.

Look at the verse: "The son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Can we all agree that the word "minster" here means serve. Christ did not come so that people could serve him but that he could serve others, and ultimately give his life for us.

Now in our government we have many that hold the "office" of "ministers." The minister of defence, the minister of foreign affairs, the minister of fnance, etc. These are now called "offices." But they didn't use to be thought of "offices" in the same way that we think of an office today. The word "minister" means "servant". And back in the days of Abraham Lincoln men that held these positions were humble enough to know that they were privileged enough to "serve" their nation. It was a place of service. It was a privilege of service, not a right to office. There is a difference.
The same is true today in the local church. The position of a pastor is not an office per se, It is a calling. It is a privilege of service to be taken with all humility of mind and contrite spirit. It is not an office to boast of. Likewise that of a deacon. It is not an "office" as we know the meaning of office today. The meanin of office has changed. It is the same as service and simply means servant, as the word diakonos, and its variants indicate. To insert the Old English meaning of an modern day word into the text is not rightly dividing the word of truth.

1. Office is not used only by Old English translations, but you can find it even in modern day NASB, NKJV, RSV, ASV, Third Millennium as well which were translated a few decades ago. Are they all wrong?

2. Apparently different words exist for Episkopes and Episkopos, what do they mean?

3. Why does the Bible explain the qualification of Overseers and of Deacons only?
Apparently isn't it that they indicate certain positions in the church linked with specific persons?
But in case of Gifts mentioned in Eph 4:7-11, are there any qualifications for them?

Apparently there existed Overseers and Deacons in Philippian church, right? Paul didn't indicate any person with the gift of speaking unknown tongues or with the gift of healing.

4. When diakonia is used, it meant minister, ministry etc., but in a few cases, it was meaning the Office in the church which I already mentioned.

The point is that the Office of Overseer and that of Deacon are distinguished from any gifts or talent.

 

[DHK]

The point is that the Office of Overseer and that of Deacon are distinguished from any gifts or talent.

It is not an office, nor a gift, nor a talent. It is a calling. If you are not called of God to be a pastor then I suggest you do something else.
It was Spurgeon that said something to the effect: "I would rather be called of God to preach the gospel, than stoop to be the king of England."
It is a calling.
Darby has it right:

1 Timothy 3:1 The word is faithful: if any one aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work.

He uses the word "aspires". That is similar to being called, or perhaps was in his time. The modern day meaning of "office" does not fit the context, and leads to proud, egotistical, leaders who think more of themselves than their flock because they hold the "office."

 

[Eliyahu]

It is not an office, nor a gift, nor a talent. It is a calling. If you are not called of God to be a pastor then I suggest you do something else.
It was Spurgeon that said something to the effect: "I would rather be called of God to preach the gospel, than stoop to be the king of England."
It is a calling.
Darby has it right:

1 Timothy 3:1 The word is faithful: if any one aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work.

He uses the word "aspires". That is similar to being called, or perhaps was in his time. The modern day meaning of "office" does not fit the context, and leads to proud, egotistical, leaders who think more of themselves than their flock because they hold the "office."

Ministry that might be translated into Calling may be found in Col 4:17.

Modern day meaning of Office is used by many translations which I already mentioned.

The important point is that Overseer and Deacon are different from any gifts like Shepherd ( Pastor in Eph 4:7-11), and they have the qualifications described in teh Bible, while no other gifts are mentioned in there.

 

[bmerr]

What about Acts 15:19? Paul and Barnabas were there. Peter was there. The elders and the rest of the apostles were there, but one man made the decision.

Greg,

bmerr here. In this case it was an inspired man, though. Continuing on in Acts 15 to 15:28, we read, "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you..." I don't believe James came up with the idea on his own.

Someone else made the point earlier that in pretty much any group, one is going to take on the role of a moderator or spokesman. In the "Jerusalem council", (the only one in the history of the church with inspired men), this person happened to be James. I don't think it requires that he had oversight over the rest, since Paul was "...not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles" (2 Cor 11:5).

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

bmerr
Not to hijack this thread, but I must comment on your statment. Actually the RC system has nothing to do with the hierarchal government system of the old Roman Empire, but everything to do with the old Jewish monarchy government system.

Agnus,

bmerr here. You are probably correct. Even so, the OT Jewish shystem was done away with in order for the NT to be brought in (Heb 8:13). Looking to the OT for religious authorization in the NT is failing to rightly divide the word of truth.

Jesus in Matthew 16 was using words and a context that would have corresponded to what they knew…which was their own history…this is called cultural literacy.

Even after the resurrection the disciples were still expecting an earthly kingdom, and they were still wrong. The kingdom of Christ "...is not of this world" (John 18:36).

This kingdom will resemble what the Jews already know b/c what Jesus is founding is not a democracy, but a kingdom and from the OT we see kingdoms have stewards and the stewards of this kingdom will began with, as Catholics believe, with Peter.

We need to understand that the kingdom of Christ has long since been established. Paul was in it (Col 1:13), and so was John (Rev 1:9).

The chain of authority begins with the Father, to the Son, to the Spirit, to the apostles and prophets, to the Scriptures, where it ends.

Peter was not a pope. He was married (Matt 8:14). He did not accept the worship of men (Acts 10:25-26). The word "pope" is not found in the Scriptures. It means "father", and Jesus commanded not to call any man on earth "father" (Matt 23:9), obviously in a spiritual sense.

There are two different words used in Matt 16:18. One is petros, tanslated "Peter", and defined as follows by Strong's with emphasis added:

G4074
Πέτρος
Petros
pet'-ros
Apparently a primary word; a (piece of) rock (larger than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle: - Peter, rock. Compare G2786.

The other is petra, translated "rock":

G4073
πέτρα
petra
pet'-ra
Feminine of the same as G4074; a (mass of) rock (literally or figuratively): - rock.

The church was not built upon Peter, but the confession that Peter made in Matt 16:16, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

One is not saved by believing in Peter as the first pope. One is saved by believing in Christ as the Son of God.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Eliyahu]

A pretty good article is available here.

Written by John Nelson Darby

Darby distinguish Gifts from Office.

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/page.php?page_id=2304

"
between gift and office there exists a great difference, and that this difference depends upon the nature of the two things."



"There were, without any question, at the commencement, offices in the assemblies; we find two kinds of them in the holy scriptures; overseers and servants, and if any one is pleased to make the distinction, sisters in service"

 

[Eliyahu]

11. Plurality of the Overseers(Elders) again.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Paul and Barnabas were developing new churches and the churches were the first and only church in each city, but we notice plural elders for every church.

Acts 20:17

17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.( Plural Elders of a singular church)

Phil 1:1

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Titus 1:5

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

In a newly established church, the elders were plural.

12 Where did the Mono-Pastoral system come from?


3 John

9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not..


Revelation 2:
6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
Nicolaitane = Nikao(Conquer, Rule Over)+Laos ( Lay people) = People ruling the laypeople=Clergy system.

Jesus Hates the Deeds and Doctrine of Nicolaitanes.

 

[Eliyahu]

13 Reality of Mono-Pastoral System.

Church people select and hire a Hireling Pastor, then assign all the Sacraments, Sermons, Administration to him. Without the consent of the pastor, nothing can be done inside the church. With the instruction by the Pastor, nothing cannot be done.

Pastors are busy 24 hours per day, 7 days a week, because the Mono-Pastoral system prohibit or prevent or discourage the laymen from preaching, from performing Baptism and Lord Supper.

Laymen and Laywomen enjoy their idleness and laziness. Laymen don’t have to prepare for the sermons or for the sacraments. Their gifts are not stirred up or developed as they have no experience in there.


14 Reality : Qualification of the Pastors.

They may evade the qualification for the overseers mentioned in 1 Tim 3:1-7, because they are not Overseers.
They are mostly the graduates from the Colleges or Seminaries of Theology and were ordained after the graduation from the Colleges and Seminaries.

The graduates are ordained even though they were not checked and tested according to the teachings of 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9.

On the contrary, any laymen cannot be ordained as Pastors even though they are quite qualified in the lives according to the teachings of 1 Tim 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9 unless they have graduated from the college or seminary of Theology.

This reality is exactly opposite to the Bible teachings.

 

[Eliyahu]

15 Reality : Worship Service and Sermons.

Bible teaches this:
1 Cor 14

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

The reality is that one Pastor monopolizes all the sermon in the church, except another visiting Pastors.

There is little chance of the stir-up and development of the Gifts of the Laypeople in such system.


They often cry that they are too busy for the Lord, monopolizing the work for the Lord. But the Lord would ask them, "Who told you that you should monopolize the work for the Church? Who asked you to do the sermon alone? Why do you do the Baptism and conduct the Lord Supper alone?" " Were you elected and qualified according to the my Words in 1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:5-9?"

 

[Eliyahu]

16 Reality : The Head of the Local Church.

In reality, the Mono-Pastor at the local churches dictate the whole affairs of the church, and he is the head of the local church.

However, the Bible teaches this:

Eph 1:22

22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

Eph 4:15

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Col 1:18


18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in F2 all things he might have the preeminence.

1 Cor 11:3


But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. ( not the head only of Pastor but of every man)


17. Distinction between Clergy and Laymen, Laywomen.

1 Pet 2:
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Rev 1:6

And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 5:10

And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We, the Believers in Jesus Christ, either men or women are all Priests to God because of the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, because of what our Lord Jesus Christ has done at the Cross.

But the Reality is that the Clergy such as Priests and Pastors dictate the churches and rule over the so-called Laypeople, sitting on the seat where Jesus Christ should sit.

 

[bmerr]

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. I'd go further and challenge anyone to find "clergy" or "laymen" in the Bible. Yet another holdover from the Roman Catholic church...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu,

bmerr here. I'd go further and challenge anyone to find "clergy" or "laymen" in the Bible. Yet another holdover from the Roman Catholic church...

In Christ,

bmerr

Correct!

So far, I didn't try to connect it to RCC traditions, but it is the holdover from RCC.

 

[Eliyahu]

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/page.php?page_id=372


Dr. Stanley, dean of Westminster, and himself a "clergyman", wrote in his "Christian Institutes," (page 19 New Edition): "In the beginning of Christianity there was no such institution as the clergy." Dr. A.T. Pierson, in "The Divine Enterprise of Missions," wrote: "These terms, 'clergy' and 'laity' were the invention of the Devil in the dark ages. The introduction of this distinction was not only an invention of the Devil, but a master stroke of Satan-craft."



The word, "clergy", is derived from the Greek, kleeros, which is translated "heritage" in 1 Peter 5:3. Thus the word has reference to all the people of God who together form God's heritage, or possession, and not to a small, exclusive and superior caste amongst Christians. The word, "laity", comes from the Greek word, laos, which means "the common people." Thus we hear today of "the clergy" and "the laity," or "clergymen" and "laymen", a distinction utterly unknown in the New Testament, where the sole revelation of the Church and its order is found.

Alfred Gibbs wrote many famous books about the Truth of Gathering in NT.

 

[Eliyahu]

John Ritchie was one of the powerful preachers among the so-called PB's.

He pointed out Acts 13:1 tells us this:

they observed the Lord's Supper on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7); but we hear no word of any "presiding minister" or "elder" at the head of the table. They owned and received the gifts of the risen Christ - evangelists, pastors and teachers; but they did not choose, elect, or ordain their own minister; nor was there any such person known in these Churches as the modern "minister," who is chosen by the congregation to do all the preaching, teaching, and shepherding of the flock. At Antioch there were five teachers (Acts 13:1), and at Philippi several Bishops (Phil. 1:1) in one church.


Read this " Which church should I join" Nearest church?

http://www.plymouthbrethren.org/page.php?page_id=1772