Paulicians: Early Baptists, Other Denomination, or...?

[Eliyahu]

CA,

The sources for E.H. Broadbent were mentioned in my previous posts.

I think he obtained the most information from the followings:


{* "Die Paulikiamer im Byzantischen Kaiserreiche etc." Karapet TerMkrttschian Archidiakonus von Edschmiatzin
"The Key of Truth A Manual of the Paulician Church of Armenia" F. C. Conybeare.
"The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" Edward Gibbon.
"The Later Roman Empire" Prof. J. B. Bury, vol.II, c. 14.}



I tried to find out the Paulikiamer in German site, but in vain.

But you must remember that Broadbent himself made a lot of journey investigating the historical sites.

Dr Cassidy mentions " A.H. Newman a Manual of Church History, Vol 1 p 381"

Dr Cassidy explains how the Paulicians-Bogomils were the proto Baptists.

I already mentioned his site, which explains the source and the linkage.

[FONT=&#48148]http://www.beaconmbc.com/In Defense of, Biblical, Historical, Christianity.htm[/FONT]

You must read thru in order to understand the linkage.


Both of the interpretation( by Broadbent and by Cassidy) for the Key of Truth are different from that of yours. How did you find the word " Exorcism" ?

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

The sources for E.H. Broadbent...
"Die Paulikiamer im Byzantischen Kaiserreiche etc." Karapet TerMkrttschian Archidiakonus von Edschmiatzin
"The Key of Truth A Manual of the Paulician Church of Armenia" F. C. Conybeare.
"The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" Edward Gibbon.
"The Later Roman Empire" Prof. J. B. Bury, vol.II, c. 14.

I tried to find out the Paulikiamer in German site, but in vain.

Dr Cassidy mentions " A.H. Newman a Manual of Church History, Vol 1 p 381

You can read German? Great. Let me know if there are any extracts in English.

Gibbon, Bury, and Newman are all secondary sources. Not really the best bet if we want to see for ourselves what the Paulicians believed and practiced.

I have not read Bury and Newman, but Gibbon does a great job of documenting his sources.

Gibbon notes that his primary source on the Paulicians was Peter Siculus. He did not have access to Photius. For Photius' perspective Gibbon apparently relied on Mosheim (another secondary source). And, of course, Gibbon did not have access to The Key of Truth.

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

Both of the interpretation( by Broadbent and by Cassidy) for the Key of Truth are different from that of yours. How did you find the word " Exorcism" ?

Where did I mention exorcism?

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

Where did I mention exorcism?

CA

On the first page of this thread,

(26) Exorcism of the catechumen is performed by the elect one before baptism.

 

[Eliyahu]

You can read German? Great. Let me know if there are any extracts in English.

Gibbon, Bury, and Newman are all secondary sources. Not really the best bet if we want to see for ourselves what the Paulicians believed and practiced.

I have not read Bury and Newman, but Gibbon does a great job of documenting his sources.

Gibbon notes that his primary source on the Paulicians was Peter Siculus. He did not have access to Photius. For Photius' perspective Gibbon apparently relied on Mosheim (another secondary source). And, of course, Gibbon did not have access to The Key of Truth.

CA

God led me to work for German companies for 10 years, and I visited a very much precious library in Europe which preserved many Waldensians and Moravian, and Anabaptist literatures but at that time I didn't know the value of them. I wait for another guidance from God for that approach.

At the moment, I think we don't have much more primary sources than Key of the Truth. But Broadbent made the research until around 1940 and his book covered the history upto 1930, and his survey in Central Asia was quite meaningful. He mentioned that he saw the cemetery with tomb stones saying " Until the Lord Jesus comes again and wake me up, I sleep here" " xxx's life was entirely devoted for his Lord Jesus Christ" etc.

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

On the first page of this thread,

(26) Exorcism of the catechumen is performed by the elect one before baptism.

I think Conybeare is referring to these passages in The Key concerning the Paulician baptismal rite:

"It is meet that they (the baptismal candidates) should approach in gentleness, in humility to the elect one (the priest), solicit from him release from demons, and that they may serve our Lord Jesus Christ..." (Chapter XIX, page 92)

"... the novices shall in fear and trembling on their knees draw nigh, naked, bending low their heads and with firmest faith, bearing in mind the release from Satan." Then the priest pours water over the head of the candidate. (Chapter XXI, page 97)

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

God led me to work for German companies for 10 years, and I visited a very much precious library in Europe which preserved many Waldensians and Moravian, and Anabaptist literatures but at that time I didn't know the value of them. I wait for another guidance from God for that approach.

That sounds pretty cool. A long time ago I spent a few years working in Washington, DC and at the time I too "didn't know the value of them."

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

Did the The Paulicians believe in baptismal regeneration?

These phrases appear in The Key of Truth, in the chapters concerning baptism. They are either said to the person, by the person, as a prayer for the person, or are a Bible reading as part of the Paulician baptismal rite:

"...baptize... and replenish them also with thine holy spirit and strengthen their minds and bodies. Because thy Son did truly promise us, saying: He that believeth shall be baptized, shall live;..."

"...attain to the holy birth of the font..."

"baptized... to obtain the power of the holy spirit... in order to obtain holiness..."

"... solicit from him (the elect one) release from demons... holy release..."

"Take on you the crown of the Lord Jesus... Take your places in the ranks on the right hand."

"...set me... free from the bonds of Satan... released from the bonds of the devils of Satan..."

"This is life eternal..."

"... the father giveth release from the bonds, the Son giveth hope to sinners, and the Holy Spirit is love in the hearts of those who listen, believe, are baptized.."

"Suffer it now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness."

"... thou hast made worthy thy servants in the hour of baptism."

"... send the Spirit of thy Father into their hearts..."

"...now... come down into these and fill the hearts of the baptized... Cleanse their spirits and minds, and make them a temple and dwelling place of the Father..."

CA

 

[CarpentersApprentice]

Did the Paulicians believe in transubstantiation?

Per pages 122-3f of The Key, this is what the Paulicians believed about the Lord’s Supper.

Concerning the Consecration of the Flesh and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Intercessor.

Now our Lord Jesus Christ willed to distribute his holy flesh and blood unto disciples and believers.

First he began with the following figure (or, in this manner). He opened their minds saying (in a figure or manner): “My flesh is true food and my blood is the true drink.” And again he said: “I am the bread of life which came down from heaven. He that eateth this bread shall live forever.”

When our lord had thus ended these figures, many of the disciples forthwith turned back. Then he again said to his remaining disciples: Do ye go and get ready for us the table of holiness, where I shall presently perform the mystery of salvation, for my (his) own believers and beloved ones. And when it was eventide Jesus went and sat down, and the twelve with him. He took one loaf (bread) unleavened in his hands, blessed it, gave thanks, broke it and said: “take ye, eat. This is my body which for you many is distributed unto the expiation and remission of sins.” [So also saith he in regard to the cup.]

Exposition of the Holy Mystery of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That our mediator and intercessor Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, took the bread in his hands and blessed it, this the holy Evangelists declare.

That is to say he earnestly besought the almighty Father that he would change the bread into his true precious body. This is why it says: “He blessed,” that is, he prayed the Lord that he would change the bread truly into his body. And so it was assuredly changed by the spirit of the heavenly Father. And when he saw that the bread was changed into his body, then he thanked the almighty Father for having changed it into his body and blood.

Now dost thou understand, my little child, the interpretation of the blessing and thanksgiving?

Yes, holy father, I have right well understood it. Humbly I pray venerable father, interpret to us this his use of the word ‘mine,’ namely: “This is my body,” as he also said after the resurrection to Peter: “Feed my sheep.” When he said this, did our mediator and intercessor Jesus Christ know that there would come false popes who would change [it] according to their good pleasure? Who with bread alone cajole all men and make that their own flesh and blood, and not Christ’s.

For this cause also doth our Lord Jesus Christ say: “This is my body.” Yea more, this doth he imply: that whosoever shall make any water, any mere bread, or any moistened morsel, and distribute deceitfully to the simple people, it is their own flesh and blood and not Christ’s.

To whom glory forever and ever. Amen

*************************************************
NOTE: The brackets [], or parentheses () above are not mine. They are included in the text, or are marginal notes.

CA

 

[Eliyahu]

Did the The Paulicians believe in baptismal regeneration?

These phrases appear in The Key of Truth, in the chapters concerning baptism. They are either said to the person, by the person, as a prayer for the person, or are a Bible reading as part of the Paulician baptismal rite:

"...baptize... and replenish them also with thine holy spirit and strengthen their minds and bodies. Because thy Son did truly promise us, saying: He that believeth shall be baptized, shall live;..."

"...attain to the holy birth of the font..."

"baptized... to obtain the power of the holy spirit... in order to obtain holiness..."

"... solicit from him (the elect one) release from demons... holy release..."

"Take on you the crown of the Lord Jesus... Take your places in the ranks on the right hand."

"...set me... free from the bonds of Satan... released from the bonds of the devils of Satan..."

"This is life eternal..."

"... the father giveth release from the bonds, the Son giveth hope to sinners, and the Holy Spirit is love in the hearts of those who listen, believe, are baptized.."

"Suffer it now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness."

"... thou hast made worthy thy servants in the hour of baptism."

"... send the Spirit of thy Father into their hearts..."

"...now... come down into these and fill the hearts of the baptized... Cleanse their spirits and minds, and make them a temple and dwelling place of the Father..."

CA

I don't see any statement which can be thought as Baptismal Regeneration, even though they emphasized Baptism quite a lot.
Lord emphasized it as well.
People are saved by believing in Jesus and what He has done for us.
They are pointing out the Gifts of Holy Spirit and the visible experience of the dwelling Holy Spirit can be evident after Baptism.
Also, washing away of the sins are often mentioned in connection with Baptism ( Acts 22:16), even though sins were forgiven at the time of Believing. I am sure that they must have read and known Acts 10:43 " whosoever believeth in Him shall receive the remission of the sins" then 10:44 Holy Spirit fell on them ( Before the Baptism). Acts 10:47-48 clearly shows that the Baptism was done after the Salvation, after Being Born Again.

From reading the above, I don't find any problem, they just emphasized the importance of Baptism, as Lord did.

But one must be careful that Paulicians meant the Spiritual Baptism by Baptism sometimes, because they mentioned that they should be baptized with the Baptism which Jesus took. I read this from Broadbent's Pilgrim Church.

 

[Eliyahu]

Did the Paulicians believe in transubstantiation?

That is to say he earnestly besought the almighty Father that he would change the bread into his true precious body. This is why it says: “He blessed,” that is, he prayed the Lord that he would change the bread truly into his body. And so it was assuredly changed by the spirit of the heavenly Father. And when he saw that the bread was changed into his body, then he thanked the almighty Father for having changed it into his body and blood.

*************************************************
NOTE: The brackets [], or parentheses () above are not mine. They are included in the text, or are marginal notes.

CA

I don't see a problem with all the other statements except this as we, Plymouth Brethren firmly deny Transubstantiation, but practice Lord Supper every week with the Belief of Memorial or "Regard them as Body and Blood" but sometimes we read the same verses which says " This is my body" We take them as Lord said.

However, the portion of your post is extra-biblical, which I don't believe.
Dr Cassidy interpretted Key of Truth as this:

[FONT=&#48148]According to their own writings the Paulicians claimed to have originated with Christ and the Apostle; accepted the Bible as the sole rule of faith; recognized only believers baptism by immersion; rejected transubstantiation[/FONT]

I had debated with Dr Cassidy on many issues. He all the time brought the valuable evidences and defended his arguments by reliable sources.
Broadbent just mentioned they rejected Infant Baptism and were strict in Lord supper because both of them were the methods by which Catholics brought the unbelievers into the churches and into the Christendom.
By Infant Baptism, everbody could be a "Christian" without confessing the Faith. By allowing Eucharist to anyone who wishes, so many unbelievers could participate in the so-called "Body of Christ"
By Transubstantiation, they could exalt the authority of Priests with Magic power of turning the bread into flesh, wine into blood.
But the Lord Jesus hates the doctrine of Nicolaitanes ( Rev 2:15)
Nicolaitanes means the Clergy system, I believe ( Nico-Rule over, Laitane- Lay people: People ruling over the laymen and laywomen)
I can say my own comments only after I read it.
But I would say we need more carefulness in reading such book, to know without human prejudice.