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Paul's Audience Didn't Like Calvinism Either

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Monergist, Apr 19, 2005.

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  1. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    When he preached that God "...has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills," they didn't like it either.

    "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"

    Paul's answer is timeless--

    "Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
    Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use?
    Rom 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
    Rom 9:23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--
    Rom 9:24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"

    Kind of puts a damper on our objections too, doesn't it?
     
    #1 Monergist, Apr 19, 2005
  2. natters

    natters New Member

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    Then why are you concerned about God willing me to oppose Calvinism? How could I possibly resist his will for me to reject it? Why are you trying to get me to go against God's will in this matter? ;)
     
    #2 natters, Apr 19, 2005
  3. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    Do you understand what this passage says?

    Tell me, why does Paul say that God, "endured with much patience", with those "fitted for wrath"? Why does "God bare in much longsuffering" (so the Greek) towards those fitted for warth, if they were going to be condemned anyway? 2 Peter 3:9 has the answer. "...but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance"

    Sure God has mercy on whom He wills. As we read in Romans 11:32, "For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all" Who is the "them all" here? Those who rejected Jesus Christ.

    I don't see any problem here.
     
    #3 icthus, Apr 19, 2005
  4. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    At the risk of being too obvious and too biblical all at the same time, Paul answers your question right where you stopped quoting.

    The time of patience is, as Peter says, for salvation. He endured them in order to save the vessels prepared before hand for glory. That is a clear biblical teaching of election.

    He did it, to quote 2 Peter, so that "we" could come to repentance. You have almost convinced me to change my mind to believing that 2 PEter 3:9 is about the elect. You have certainly brought up a good case for it.

    Read the verse you cited. It says that these vessels were prepared for destruction. If so, was there any chance they would repent?

    I am also curious as to why you didn't deal with that verse before asking your "why" question? The text clearly answered you, but you stopped short of the answer. Why?
     
    #4 Pastor Larry, Apr 20, 2005
  5. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    If Paul was teaching your view, then why the objection to his teaching---

    "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"
     
    #5 Monergist, Apr 27, 2005
  6. icthus

    icthus New Member

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    If Paul was teaching your view, then why the objection to his teaching---

    "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?"     </font>[/QUOTE]Because man will not accept God's conditions for Salvation, that is to "repent and believe the Gospel", as Jesus put it.
     
    #6 icthus, Apr 28, 2005
  7. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    :confused: Whose will is Paul talking about; God's or man's. Is it God's will that cannot be resisted, or man's?

    If it's indeed God's will that is in view in the verse here, then again I ask the question,--

    Why the obection, if your view is true?
     
    #7 Monergist, Apr 28, 2005
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    It "seems" to me you are both making the same argument.

    What am I missing?

    Monergist makes the point that IF Calvinism is true then any comments/POV/exposure-of-Calvinist-error coming from an Arminian - is simply God "and God alone" so why object?

    And Icthus is pointing out the non-Calvinist (Arminian) points Paul makes in Romans 9.

    Two sides of the same coin is it not?
     
    #8 BobRyan, Apr 28, 2005
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