Peace with ME-ers

[skypair]

This is my endeavor to bring peace between ME-ers and the rest of us.

1) It is true that there are 2 groups of people in the visible church (the "Wheat-tares" dichotomy - "Philadelphia-Laodicea" dichotomy - the "wise-foolish virgin dichotomy or your "eternal life-kingdom dichotomy) Many theologians have offered us their explanations of them, and though they don't see your same disposition of them, they usually use your same "legalistic" or "works" framework to distinguish them.

2) It is true that part of the church will be left behind at the rapture and that, of those left behind, many may appear at the "goats and sheep" judgment and from there go into "outer darkness" --- for 1000 years -- then to be resurrected to the GWT, to 2nd death, and to lake of fire.

3) It is true that "works" are involved as proof of saved or not saved in that GWT judgment.

Is this sounding familiar so far?

In the scripture though, all with your similar view miss the part where 5 wise virgins go to their wedding in heaven because they have the oil of the Holy Spirit in their "lamps'/bodies. The foolish have NO oil ---- and are NOT saved at all -- are left behind on earth. It wasn't works in Mt 25:1-13 that got them to heaven. It was Holy Spirit oil.

So the left behind, they would experience hell on earth. And if they convert to Christ, they will likely be martyred. They may or may not rule depending as you say, on their works. But some "overcomers" may rule nations according to Rev 3"21.

Whoever, take AC's mark and live, they will be at the "goat and sheep" judgment after 7 years and go to outer darkness from there instead of ruling in the MK.

The point of this being that many theologians don't "buy" that works are deceiving. That even without being saved, one may appear to be (like most Cavlvinists not on this board). Or that without being lost, one might appear to be lost on account of the acts of the flesh but God looks on the inside.

And that is why God reveals who is saved and who not when the rapture comes.

Do you find agreement with these statements? Is mine maybe a better description of what the Bible says? What are your concerns with this?

skypair

 

[Lacy Evans]

I'm really beginning to respect you brother.

Mt 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.


Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Romans 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

1 Peter 3:11 Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, at the GWT, works still don't determine saved/unsaved, but they are judged for their works, but at least you don't lie about what we are saying.

Just like the JSOC, where works are judged, whether good or bad. The JSOC doesn't determine whether one is saved or unsaved, that's determined beforehand.

No matter what, the sheep and goats represent two types of saved individuals: Both are clean animals, their works are being judged (whether good or bad), and the fire is temporal.

BTW, the gehenna warnings that are given to saved individuals, I do think has to do with the tribulation period because of the focus on the right hand and right eye.

Oh, and all 10 virgins had oil, it's just that 5 of them had extra oil. If the other 5 had not had oil, they wouldn't be running out of oil; their lamps would not be going out, they would have never been lit in the first place.

FWIW, it's much better to have discussions/debates with other Baptist brethren without the vituperation and slander that is so common today. I would much rather have discussions with someone with whom I could enjoy a good cup or three of coffee than someone who is incapable of being honest and truthful.

Oh, and I agree that there are two groups presented in the church. However, most people these days look at them as those who are really, really, really saved, and those who didn't quite make it. This eliminates any accountability for the saved person, and IMO makes a lot of people much more comfortable.

 

[skypair]

I'm really beginning to respect you brother.

Thank you, Lacy. I hope that one day the Calvies will also acknowledge that my desire is the "unity of the knowledge and faith of Christ" (Eph 4:13) -- that our diversity of intellect can together find what is true and unfaigned worship of God.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Well, at the GWT, works still don't determine saved/unsaved, but they are judged for their works, but at least you don't lie about what we are saying.

Good! "Book of Life" (who's saved) and "book of works" (what they did) 2 different things.

Just like the JSOC, where works are judged, whether good or bad. The JSOC doesn't determine whether one is saved or unsaved, that's determined beforehand.

The one in heaven post-rapture obviously does not divide saved from unsaved. You can't even get there unless you are saved. You do believe in and know about the rapture, right?

And the "works" judged there are those built on the foundation of Christ and the apostles -- whether you built (or better, whether you you "learned" and "taught" turth or error) "gold, silver, precious stones" or "wood, hay, stubble."

No matter what, the sheep and goats represent two types of saved individuals: Both are clean animals, their works are being judged (whether good or bad), and the fire is temporal.

Goats are "clean" but goats are leaders in OT symbology. And don't forget the "scape goat." The sins of Israel, the blood of the pascal lamb, were laid on the goat and taken away into the wilderness. Certainly the Pharisees and any like them would be in view here -- 1) unsaved, 2) misguiding, 3) headed for ETERNAL hell/separation.

And where do you make this "outer darkness" out to be temporal hell? Did you mean "temporary?" or "Gehenna" temporal -- outside Jerusalem for 1000 years?

Don't ignore the rest of the parable, HoG. They are cast into outer darkness because they did not give a child nor stranger (the least of these) water, food, clothing, and visitation (witness to them) during the tribulation (Mt 25:40).

BTW, the gehenna warnings that are given to saved individuals, I do think has to do with the tribulation period because of the focus on the right hand and right eye.

You may very well have a point -- that appears to be AC's injury (Zech 11:15). That could be part of his deception -- that it has happened so that he and his "followers" with him may enter into the kingdom. For we further suspect that he shows up at the postrib "wedding feast" (Mt 22:12-13)! Perhaps he convinces his followers to take his own "marks" in their hand and head.

But God's OT concept of it was for NEW Jerusalem of the MK -- gehenna outside it, Isa 66:24. It is interesting to note that in OT parlance, "new heavens and new earth" are the MK of Christ whereas in the NT, "New Heavens and New Earth" are God's ETERNAL kingdom on earth.

Oh, and all 10 virgins had oil, it's just that 5 of them had extra oil.

That is the CONSTANT objection of the "traditional church" you despise and outright denies what GOD has said, HoG. "Re-manufacture" it however you will, Mt 25:3 says "They that were foolish took their lamps, and took NO oil with them:..." Now if you've figured out a better way to tell it than Christ, then perhaps you have, what for YOU is, a better religion than He was offering. But I'm gonna say that what He said is pretty clear to me and it ain't "works" in view here but "Holy Spirit." It's not works that gets you "out to meet" the Groom Who is coming for us, it's the Holy Spirit.

FWIW, it's much better to have discussions/debates with other Baptist brethren without the vituperation and slander that is so common today. I would much rather have discussions with someone with whom I could enjoy a good cup or three of coffee than someone who is incapable of being honest and truthful.

Double AMEN to that. I tried once to get the jackals to back off but they smell for blood rather than for the nature of the misuderstanding. But we are aware of Satan's devices, aren't we? We try instead to make all the Bible agree with itself when it appears to teach divergent truths. What might help is for you to "picture" things as you imagine we do, study our assertions, and see where our "nugget of truth" comes from.

Oh, and I agree that there are two groups presented in the church. However, most people these days look at them as those who are really, really, really saved, and those who didn't quite make it. This eliminates any accountability for the saved person, and IMO makes a lot of people much more comfortable.

I think the focus needs to be on WHO we are accountable to. We are accountable to God for sins against Him and man. These, we confess/agree with God. That is the beginning of making ourselves right. It is God that gives us the power to escape sin and God has a process for that which you are trying to subvert. His process is to

1) convict our conscience of sin (that our actions displease God and/or others). YOU are not likely to get a saved African to quit his adulterous life that is tribal custom without getting that into his conscience where he communes with God -- so don't spue out warnings of a future loss, tell him about the impact it has on this life so he can prove it for himself.

2) He sends a witness confirming what He convicted us of (which IS where you come in -- but not with condemnation, friend [remember to be careful with what you build on Christ's foundation], but with practical testimony of the harm of sin in this life and the possible ostracism from the fellowship, THIS kingdom, 1Cor 5:5.

3) He sends loss -- loss of health, honor, or wealth. As Solomon said, "By humility and the fear of the LORD are riches, and honour, and life." Prov 22:4 Or Prov 3:16 -- "Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour."

4) Calls the wayward "ambassador" home, "sins unto death."

You know where men got involved in condemning men? When one man laid another down in his gutter to see who was the tallest (old Adrian Rogers-ism). Man comparing himself to man and not to God is all that is. Taking the mote out of another's eye without taking the log out of your own. Listen to me, HoG, find out more about God's program before you hold your millennial exclusion with too stiff a neck to turn and see the truth. I've been praying for you. raying:

skypair

 

[Lazarus]

Re 20:11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Are those who are called to the Great White Throne judgement the unsaved only or every person who has died whether it be with Christ or without. If it is the unsaved only then why is the book of life present since those who died without Christ will not be found in it. If it is the saved who are present along with the unsaved, to have their works judged, then is this also the Judgement Seat of Christ?

 

[DHK]

Please do not start any new threads on ME.