Featured Penal Substitution Gospel

I also believe Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.

But I believe somewhat differently. I believe this is according to the Scriptures (only).

I also believe that Genesis 3:15 foreshadows Christ.

Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

I know my interpretation may be debatable, but I believe the "Seed of the woman," here is Christ and the serpent is Satan.

Instead of viewing God as bruising Christ I believe this was pointing to Isaiah 53 as Satan "bruises His heal" and He completely defeats Satan. Genesis 3:15 also links Christ's suffering and death under the "powers of darkness" as God's predetermined plan (by God making the statement to the serpent).

So obviously I do not agree with penal substitution.

 

Then what is the second half?

 

Problem, again, is thale fact that those verses (the text) does not speak of penal substitution in the sense that Christ suffered God's punishment instead of us.

This is why it is such a difficult discussion. Penal Substitution theorists provide verses and then have to add to those verses, or they provide verses and simply say it is penal substitution even though penal substitution is not in the verses they provide.

 

Let's go down these verses.

Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

This verse is not penal substitution. It says we have all gone astray and God laid on Christ the iniquity of us all.

I believe that verse is correct.

Isaiah 53:1-12
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed

Again, wonderful verse. But not penal substitution.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Amen. Christ, who knew no sin, was made to be sin for us.

Not penal substitution.

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Yes!! Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Again, not penal substitution.



We could go on, but that's probably enough to prove the point. Penal Substitution is not in the text of Scripture. It is what some believe is taught by the text. I believe the Bible teaches what is written in the Bible, so I reject the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement.

 

No. The basic doctrine of the Trinity is in the text of Scripture.

If you mean a more developed doctrine then I agree. They debated the use of persons and natures for some time.

But the foundational doctrine (God is One, the Father and Son are One, the Spirit is God's Spirit, and the Father, Son, and Spirit are not the same) is in the actual text of Scripture.

Penal Substitution has no biblical (text of Scripture) support at all.

There is not a verse that says Christ was punished instead of us.

There is not a verse that says God punished Christ.

There is not a verse that links punishment with forgiveness.

There is not a verse that states Christ died instead of us.

So penal substitution theorists only have their philosophy into which they add Scripture.

 

I agree.

Christ suffered the wages of our sin, the wages we will and do suffer, for us. God never punished the righteous (the point of Psalm 22).

 

Read the entire Psalm.

Why does the "Suffering Servant" trust God?

Then read Isaiah 53.

Exactly who was doing the killing and Who was His hope for deliverance?

 

And does the OP even matter if you cannot define "penal substitution"?

 

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; And by night, but I have no rest. Yet You are holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel. In You our fathers trusted; They trusted and You delivered them. To You they cried out and were delivered; In You they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people. All who see me sneer at me; They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying, “Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him; Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.” Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb; You made me trust when upon my mother’s breasts. Upon You I was cast from birth; You have been my God from my mother’s womb. Be not far from me, for trouble is near; For there is none to help. Many bulls have surrounded me; Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me. They open wide their mouth at me, As a ravening and a roaring lion. I am poured out like water, And all my bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And my tongue cleaves to my jaws; And You lay me in the dust of death. For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me; They pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots. But You, O Lord, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance. Deliver my soul from the sword, My only life from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion’s mouth; From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me. I will tell of Your name to my brethren; In the midst of the assembly I will praise You. You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him, And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel. For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him; But when he cried to Him for help, He heard. From You comes my praise in the great assembly; I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him. The afflicted will eat and be satisfied; Those who seek Him will praise the Lord. Let your heart live forever! All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations will worship before You. For the kingdom is the Lord’s And He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship, All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive. Posterity will serve Him; It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation. They will come and will declare His righteousness To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.


Read that in its entirety.

The Servant cries out for help. He is suffering, surrounded by evil. He relies on God's righteousness, providing an account of God delivering the father's of Israel when they cried out. And the Psalm culminates with praise to God, knowing God will deliver Him.

 

Yes. We all know Jesus died for our sin.

But how is this "penal substitution"?

 

From what you posted we seem to agree.

I agree with what you have provided when I requested for you to define your view. I certainly agree with the passages you offer.

Where do we disagree?