Penalsubstitutionism.

[JesusFan]

Romans 5:8, But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 53:6, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Mark 10:45, For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

2 Corinthians 5:21, For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 John 2:2, And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Timothy 2:6, Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

and yet "No psa found anywhere in the bible?"

 

[JesusFan]

But you cannot find verse that states that. That is my point.

You look at the lost as owing the payment for sins. That is not in God's Word.

I look at man experiencing the wages of sin as sin begats death. But I believe there is something greater than these wages because I believe it is appointed man once to die and then the judgment. The lost, then, under my belief will face the judgment that is Christ-centered and experience the Second Death.

I believe Penal Substitution theorists make too little out of sin and take God's judgment against the wicked far too lightly. This cannot help but minimize the grace through which we are saved.


But the bottom line is I believe we have to trust God's Word, something that is impossible for Penal Substitution theorists to do regarding doctrine. They have a need to lean on their own understanding. I did at one time as well.

Psa magnifies the glory of the cross, for when one reads the writings of a Calvin, or a Spurgeon, or better yet Paul, one sees clearly Psa elevates the glory of God and the cross of Christ

 

[JesusFan]

You make a serious errors here. The wages of sin is not a spiritual death. Per S riptire the wages of sin is death and after this death is judgment.

You are combining two things that Scripture presents as distinct and seperate. You are also misusing the Law in a part of your comment.


Please provide the passages that state what you are talking about so we can discuss them rather than subjective opinions.

We are born as spiritually dead in oyur sin natures, and also under curse of physical death

 

[JesusFan]

I work swing shift....so I post at different times. And good morning to you
.

One of my complaints is that penal substitution theorists do not believe God can forgive sins, although they would not admit it. They ultimately believe God punishes our sins on Jesus to allow the guilty escape this punishment.

I believe the Bible offers a better solution where God legitimately forgives sins by ultimately making the guilty "not guikty". This will not work with Penal Substitution Theory because of the 16th century judicial philosophy they applied to divine justice where a crime creates a deficit that must be restored. Thankfully this philosophy pretty much died out by the early 17th century, but it lives on in Penal Substitution Theory.

The truth per scriptures is that we were and all are guilty as charged, but PSA permits the Judge to declare us innocent now

 

[JesusFan]

As you stated. this is NOT a Calvinist or non cal thing, as Reformed, majority of Baptists, whether Calvinist or free will, have held to Psa

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No,I did read your post. I said you would not admit to it.

Then either you did not understand it or you willfully misconstrued it

But prove me wrong....did God punish your sins laid on Jesus or did God forgive them?

Oh, for goodness' sake! Read my post!!!!!!!!! God did both those things. Why is that beyond your comprehension?
'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' If our iniquity is laid on Him, then it is no more on us. It's so simple that a child could understand it!
'He died that we might be forgiven;
He died to make us good;
That we at last might go to heaven,
Saved by His precious blood.'

When I get tired of a topic I don't participate in that topic. It's called being an adult. When some get tired of a topic they don't want anybody discussing it. It's called being a child.

I joined this thread because you tagged me on the O.P. and charged me with something that you know perfectly well is not true.
We have managed to get along fairly well for a year or more by leaving each other strictly alone.
I will make you a deal: you leave me alone and I will gladly leave you alone. That doesn't mean I won't comment on threads on the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. The topic is too important for that. But I will not quote or tag you if you will extend the same courtesy to me.

 

[just-want-peace]

Then either you did not understand it or you willfully misconstrued it

Oh, for goodness' sake! Read my post!!!!!!!!! God did both those things. Why is that beyond your comprehension?
'All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' If our iniquity is laid on Him, then it is no more on us. It's so simple that a child could understand it!
'He died that we might be forgiven;
He died to make us good;
That we at last might go to heaven,
Saved by His precious blood.'

I joined this thread because you tagged me on the O.P. and charged me with something that you know perfectly well is not true.
We have managed to get along fairly well for a year or more by leaving each other strictly alone.
I will make you a deal: you leave me alone and I will gladly leave you alone. That doesn't mean I won't comment on threads on the Doctrine of Penal Substitution. The topic is too important for that. But I will not quote or tag you if you will extend the same courtesy to me.

!!!!!!!!!

 

[JonC]

Oh, for goodness' sake! Read my post!!!!!!!!! God did both those things.

That is what I said you said - God punishes and then forgives those sins He punished.

My point is that is not forgiveness. IF God forgave your sins then God did not punish those sins.

Simple definitions, dude.

 

[JD731]

Here is all one has to know:

Adam introduced sin into the world of mankind by one transgression, a physical deed of disobedience to God. Ro 5:12

At the same time death was entered into the world because death is the result of sin.

The concept of death must be properly understood as God defines it. It is separation and that is all it is.

The separation that took place when Adam sinned was the breath of life that was breathed into him by God departed, which was the Spirit of God.

This is the same Spirit that gives all believers in Jesus Christ and the work he did on our behalf on the cross and his resurrection, the permanent and never ending indwelling of God in our bodies, the Holy Spirit. this is eternal life.

The Holy Spirit is equated by God as the righteousness of Christ because he indwelt Christ in all but 3 hours of his life on earth and was his power in his flesh to please God in all things. Compare Jn 1:4 with Jn 3:34 & context.

Adam was charged with sin because he and his wife were one and the seed of humanity was in him.

Since the image of God was lost in Adam when he sinned, three-fold, soul, body, and Spirit, and Adam produce the family of man in his corrupted image, soul and body, the result was that there was no power over sins (deeds of the body that displeased God) and men eventually died physically when the soul and body were separated, each part going to a different place.
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How sin works to bring death;

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. (read and consider the context)

Sin is a deed done in the body. All men are guilty of their own sins. All men will be judged according to their sins. As long as men have their sins charged to them they are condemned to die the second death, which is eternal separation of the soul and body from the presence of God in the lake of fire. The only thing that will take away the condemnation is if sin is somehow removed from the person and the law is satisfied by a prosecution that is demanded of the law.
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The Judge has put out a timeless notice that sins have been taken away by a man without any sin of his own, God's (the gracious Judge) own own son has died as sin to put it away for everyone so the guilty can be reconciled if they will come for pardon by the Judge in his name, Jesus name. Since there are no personal sins to hold him the Judge raised Jesus from the dead and gave his life, the Spirit of God, who is eternal, to live in the bodies of those who receive the gracious offer of the Judge to come.

2 Cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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The magnitude of the sacrifice;

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

When?

He 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world (kosmos): but now once in the end of the world (aion - of law) hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What does that do for sinners?

2 Cor 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

How long will this last?

He 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (while a sinner is alive on the earth)

There is an end to grace as the operative principle of God's divine dealing with sinners:

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day (this is the day of the LORD), in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Jesus Christ died for sinners to pay the penalty for our sins and God accepted his payment and we can be assured of that by the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead. Anything that takes away from this fact is not the gospel that will save a soul from the second death.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

My point is that is not forgiveness. IF God forgave your sins then God did not punish those sins.

If you have a family, have you never punished your child and then forgiven him?
God goes one step further and takes the punishment upon Himself in the Person of Christ so that he can be 'just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.'

 

[Charlie24]

I don't think they are doing anything with those gaps. I do not believe God's Word has the gaps you see (I believe the gaps are in your understanding, not God's Word).

I am not saying you are pretending that Penal Substitution Theory is correct. I know you believe the theory "fills in the gaps" God left in His Word. I am saying you are wong.


In your opinion, why can some people study the Bible and it make since while others see gaps?

For example, why do some read Acts 2:38 and see baptismal regeneration and another reads the same verse and see's the just the opposite?
Something's wrong, something is dead wrong. There's a gap to be filled! How is that done, Jon?

For example, why do some read Romans 8 and see Calvin's theory of predestination, another reads the same verse and see's a completely different predestination? Something's wrong, something is dead wrong. There's a gap to be filled.

For example, why do you read the Scripture and not see penal substitution, and I read the Scripture and see it plain as the nose on my face? Something's wrong. There's a gap to be filled.

I could type examples until my fingers wear out.

 

[Charlie24]

For example, why do some read Acts 2:38 and see baptismal regeneration and another reads the same verse and see's the just the opposite?
Something's wrong, something is dead wrong. There's a gap to be filled! How is that done, Jon?

For example, why do some read Romans 8 and see Calvin's theory of predestination, another reads the same verse and see's a completely different predestination? Something's wrong, something is dead wrong. There's a gap to be filled.

For example, why do you read the Scripture and not see penal substitution, and I read the Scripture and see it plain as the nose on my face? Something's wrong. There's a gap to be filled.

I could type examples until my fingers wear out.

Had to make a correction from 1 Peter 2:38 to Acts 2:38.

 

[Charlie24]

The concept is right there in Isaiah 53, of the Suffering Servant of Yahweh, its like stating no Trinity as exact term not in our bible

The same goes with the Rapture/Resurrection.