Please Explain John 12:37-40

[webdog]

Wow you can't just be wrong. You have to misrepresent me. You have to call me names and then you have to question my character. Wow . . . you know its one thing to disagree with someone on something, but you can't even disagree with someone in an honorable way. That's really sad webdog . . . really sad!

All one has to do is read the 34 pages, Jason. Truth hurts, huh?

 

[webdog]

I don't know if Webdog believes all you attribute to him, but he has been shown through scripture that which is not easily discernable without stepping back and taking a look at Jesus the man of earth, and Jesus the Christ seated in heaven. The man came in prophecy, fulfilling prophecy. What happened after that? Israel looked for Messiah, but did not know Him. After He shed His blood and arose He did not change the gospel (salvation for whom He said He came for).

Are you saying the Bible does not teach two gospels during the time all the Apostle's lived? If there is only one gospel, can you sight it here that one gospel of our justification that was preached by Jesus while on earth, before and after the Cross?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--
Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

 

[ituttut]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God's gift--
Eph 2:9 not from works, so that no one can boast.

Knew you see more than one gospel. Awaiting J. Jump reply

 

[J. Jump]

I'm sorry webdog I don't remember a formal meeting. Obviously you know my first name, why don't you share with everyone yours sense you feel the need to share mine with everyone without my permission.

I'm anxious to see how your going to turn this mistake into my fault.

You are one of the most arrogant people that I have run across in quite some time. You have been informed that you have offended another brother in Christ. You try to lay your mistake onto me. I prove to you that what you said isn't true and you are still so arrogant as to say that you know what I believe.

Again I think people have enough information on you and the way your treat others that I hope they will take a LONG hard look at what you say from this point forward.

It's really sad that a situation that could have been handled with a simple I apologize what is it that you believe so I won't misrepresent you in the future, you have tried to turn 180 and make me the bad guy even though I am the one you lied about. That's pretty typical of people today though unfortunately

 

[J. Jump]

I don't know if Webdog believes all you attribute to him, but he has been shown through scripture that which is not easily discernable without stepping back and taking a look at Jesus the man of earth, and Jesus the Christ seated in heaven. The man came in prophecy, fulfilling prophecy. What happened after that? Israel looked for Messiah, but did not know Him. After He shed His blood and arose He did not change the gospel (salvation for whom He said He came for).

Are you saying the Bible does not teach two gospels during the time all the Apostle's lived? If there is only one gospel, can you sight it here that one gospel of our justification that was preached by Jesus while on earth, before and after the Cross?

What you were reading is not what webdog believes, but was a misrepresentation of what I believe. From the posts that I have read of webdog he is pretty much a church traditionalist as far as I can tell.

You and I have had several conversations in regard to what I believe so I don't think we need to go over it again just look back at some of the threads that we share.

 

[Tom Butler]

We return you now to the original question, dealing with John 12:37-40.

 

[Allan]

As to the context of I Cor 4:6-8, your point is well taken, that it is dealing with superior attitude, etc. However, that is a principle here that extends beyond the context. It is that all we have is a gift from God. That includes the gift of salvation. It is something that we have no cause to boast about. The question Paul asked is not, what is the difference. It is, who makes you different?

OK, I'll go with the principle aspect as I agree therein.
Yes, Paul is stating the 'Who' concerning the difference in one believer vs another with regard to positioin or gifts NOT about salvation. You have to superimpose that into the text. "All we have is a gift from God"??? Does that include sin, being under His wrath, unrighteousness... "every Good thing is from above". Salvation is a gift I agree but one that can be rejected.

This principle also applies to the blinding and hardening of the Jews as a nation. You hold that they are responsible for their own blinding and hardening, and that the difference between those folks and the Jews who believed is that one group believed, the other did not.

No, the distinction is who they were looking for. (ie King or savior) However due to their partial blindness (as says the scriptures which Blammo quoted)

Romans 11:25-32 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

They would not accept a Savior if looking for a King, but if they accepted the Savior He would their King.
ABout the blinding of Israel...I hold they are responsible for why God did indeed blinded them. I do agree with what you spoke with Amy about concerning unbelief and hardening:
You stated:

Actually, Amy, I think you can make a case that the longer one persists in unbelief, the more hardened one is to the gospel. In other words, a natural outgrowth of unbelief is hardening.

This is still an act of God, who set the terms for hardening and blinding. No one is saved unless God moves first. The harshest punishment one can incur is for God to leave him alone to the natural results of unbelief.

Degrees of hardening and blinding? Not sure about that.

Well the degree of harding are shown (at least for this thread) in Israel blinding. Jesus said Israel was blinded, and yet we see thousands of Jews coming to salvation after Jesus accention. So was Israel blinded totally (making Jesus a liar when Jews were saved) OR were the blinded in part with regard to their King. This is the very reason they accuse and bring Him before Pilate on - He who cliamed He was their King was not their King... How horribly true that statement became.
But I absolutely agree the harshest judgment (though absolutley Just) is when God STOPS reaching out and leaves you to the natural results of unbelief. This is why I'm so thankful for His mercy and praise Him for His grace.

But the principle Paul espoused leads to my view that it is God who makes the difference between the two groups, believers and unbelievers.

This again has NOTHING to do with context as it is dealing with believers. Please show were this principle is used as distinction between believer and non-believer. If you hold to principle it still is defined by its context and the context is has nothing to do with salvation.
Even if you hold to the principle as put forth (on God deciding who get saved and who doesn't) you still loose footing with the scriptures that show Jesus died for ALL men:

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Ti 4:9 This [is] a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.

Tts 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Just to name a few... >>>EDITED<<<

 

[Tom Butler]

Allan, thanks for trying to keep the thread on track.

I reviewed my comment to Amy about degrees of hardening and blinding. In the first paragraph actually implied there were degrees, and in the last paragraph I said I wasn't sure. How's that for consistency?

My latest position, which obviously may change with the wind: Not sure, leaning against degrees, open to more light.

I don't think the passage in Romans 11 supports degrees of hardening. I take it to mean exactly what you said--that not all Israel is blinded and some will be saved.

We've been over the other parts of the post, no sense rehashing.

Our conversations are certainly not very exciting, though. Wanna start a fight?

 

[Allan]

Allan, thanks for trying to keep the thread on track.

I reviewed my comment to Amy about degrees of hardening and blinding. In the first paragraph actually implied there were degrees, and in the last paragraph I said I wasn't sure. How's that for consistency?

My latest position, which obviously may change with the wind: Not sure, leaning against degrees, open to more light.

I don't think the passage in Romans 11 supports degrees of hardening. I take it to mean exactly what you said--that not all Israel is blinded and some will be saved.

We've been over the other parts of the post, no sense rehashing.

Our conversations are certainly not very exciting, though. Wanna start a fight?

LOL, I almost fell out of my chair laughing. :laugh:

I guess Rom 11 isn't 'actually' degrees of blindness per-say but I was simply showing they were not totally blinded but to a degree blinded.

I think the God has established and 'type' of automated hardening (which I would consider degrees). The more you hear and don't respond the more hardened to what you are to it.

 

[rsr]

My apologies for not stopping the spitting match sooner.

Please keep to the topic.