Please explain the difference between Monergism and Rocks Crying Out

[canadyjd]

No, Skandelon is correct, although there were many thousands of Jews who believed on Christ, 3,000 alone on the day of Pentacost. However the vast majority were hardened as Skandelon says. The scriptures absolutely speak of a remnant.

I said the passage in John 6 has no "remnant" language. For Skandelon to be correct, you must show me the "remnant" language in John 6.

Rom 11:1.. saying,..3 Lord,..4...5 Even... Rom 11:6 And if by grace,...7 What then? ....8 (According as it is written, ....9 And David saith, ...10 ...
11 I say then, ...

This remnant who God foreknew was saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

The rest were hardened. They did not want to believe the gospel, so God allows them to be deceived and hardened.

2 Thess 2:10 And with...11 And for this cause ...12 That they all might be damned ...

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, ...14 If by any means ...
Rom 11:23 And they also, ...24 For if thou wert cut ....25 For I would not, brethren, ...26 And so all Israel shall be saved: ...

I see no reference to the John 6 passage, which is what we are discussing. There is no "remnant" language in the John 6 passage. That has to be inserted as a pre-concieved belief in order to make the passage fit what you and Skandelon want it to say.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus told us why. They were not His sheep. All of His sheep will hear His voice and follow Him. The rest will not, nor are they able because they are not His sheep.

And why can't the believe in order to become his sheep? Read JOHN 12:37-41 and it tells you.

37 Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet: "Lord, who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" 39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: 40 "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

You can say God didn't draw them, or God hardened them, but that doesn't change the fact they were unable to come to Jesus.

You are right, but if I establish why they are unable to come to Jesus then I can show why the rest of humanity can come to Jesus when they are drawn. After all, the rest of humanity is not being temporarily hardened by God, are they?

Perhaps you can show me where I said they couldn't come because they were totally depraved? I'll wait patiently while you look for the quote.

I apologize. I thought you were arguing the typical Calvinistic position. Please tell us why you suppose they are unable to believe if its not because they were born totally depraved and remain as unelected reprobates?

I have consistently quoted Jesus. They couldn't believe because they weren't of His sheep.The point I am making is that the language that Jesus uses about the gentile "sheep" is the same as the Jewish "sheep". That is, they are part of the group that has been given to Jesus by the Father.

Like I said, the analogy of being a sheep is equal to Paul's analogy of being "grafted into the vine." Being in the "sheep fold" is equal to "being in the vine." Now, with that in mind, read Romans 11 and tell me why the remnant is in the vine, the gentiles are being grafted into the vine and Israel is being blinded...but could be grafted back in if they leave their unbelief?

No gentile will come unless he is drawn by the Father and all who are drawn will come and follow Jesus unto salvation.

Agreed. For how can they believe in one whom they have not heard. How are they drawn? They are invited by the gospel call sent out by holy spirit filled men and women. Those are the means God selected to call all men to faith and repentance.

This is a specific group of people, predetermined by God for salvation. Jesus already knows every name. The names have already been given to Him by God the Father. That specific group of people will be drawn by the Father to come to Christ. Every person so drawn will come to Jesus and follow Him.

I know that is what view you are reading into the text, but I assure you it is not what the biblical authors were attempting to communicate. Instead, they were talking about a group of elect Jews being chosen to be apostles while the rest of the Jews were being temporarily blinded in their rebellion by God so that these apostles could take the message of reconciliation to the entire world.

 

[Skandelon]

I said the passage in John 6 has no "remnant" language. For Skandelon to be correct, you must show me the "remnant" language in John 6.

By that standard then you would have to show the "sheep" language in John 6. That is absurd. We are talking about the historical context of the day. The book of John is all ONE book and can certainly be references to other parts of that book and other scripture in order to better understand it.

Let's do it this way.

1. The audience (the people listening to his sermon) in John 6 was Israel, agree or disagree? Why?

2. Israel is being blinded by God in their rebellion, agree or disagree? Why?

3. There is a remnant from Israel (which would include the apostles) that have not been blinded by God, but who are being taught directly by Christ, agree or disagree? Why?

 

[canadyjd]

And why can't the believe in order to become his sheep?

The reason Jesus gave for their unbelief is that they were not of His sheep. He didn't say they weren't His sheep because they didn't believe. He said they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep.

You are right, but if I establish why they are unable to come to Jesus then I can show why the rest of humanity can come to Jesus when they are drawn. After all, the rest of humanity is not being temporarily hardened by God, are they?

I understand your argument rests on the "remnant" theory. I understand that you believe the reason the Jews are not believing is because they have been hardened. I don't deny that to be true. But you are completely ignoring what Jesus is saying in John and replacing it with remnant theolgy.

Jesus said that everyone that the Father has given Him will come to Him. He will not lose any. That is true of both Jews and Gentiles. Both are referred to as sheep. He dies for them. He raises them up on the last day. He gives them eternal life. He referring to His people whom He has chosen for salvation.

Jesus doesn't put conditions on these statements. He doesn't say... "Those the Father has given to Me during this time of hardening of the Jews will come to Me. Later on, We'll open the invitation up for anyone who wants to believe the gospel, but for now, it is only open to those the Father has given Me."

Isn't that what you are claiming that He says?

I apologize. I thought you were arguing the typical Calvinistic position. Please tell us why you suppose they are unable to believe if its not because they were born totally depraved and remain as unelected reprobates?

They are not chosen by God for salvation. Therefore, God will not draw them by Holy Spirit, God will not regenerate them, God will not bring them into a salvific relationship with Jesus Christ.

Like I said, the analogy of being a sheep is equal to Paul's analogy of being "grafted into the vine." Being in the "sheep fold" is equal to "being in the vine." Now, with that in mind, read Romans 11 and tell me why the remnant is in the vine, the gentiles are being grafted into the vine and Israel is being blinded...but could be grafted back in if they leave their unbelief?

Paul's argument in Romans 9-11 is that true "Israel" is made up of the "children of the promise", comprised of both Jew and Gentile whom God has chosen for salvation by grace.

The "hardening" of the Jewish people is to the benefit of the Gentiles, since the Jewish people persecute the Christian believers who turn to the Gentiles with the gospel.

The remnant among the Jewish people is not hardened, they come to salvation as the Gentiles do. There may even be Jews once hardened (like Paul), who are children of promise and will be grafted back into the vine.

When Paul says the hardening has taken place until the fulness of the Gentiles, "thus all Israel will be saved", he isn't saying all the Jews will be saved. He is saying all the children of promise (true "Israel" comprised of both Jew and Gentile) will be saved.

IMHO, the language of Romans indicates there may be a time when the hardening of the Jews will be lifted and a mass conversion to Christianity (or accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah) takes place among the Jewish people.

I pray that is so.

Agreed. For how can they believe in one whom they have not heard. How are they drawn? They are invited by the gospel call sent out by holy spirit filled men and women. Those are the means God selected to call all men to faith and repentance.

I agree the gospel is the means God has ordained to bring His children to salvation.

I know that is what view you are reading into the text, but I assure you it is not what the biblical authors were attempting to communicate.

Respectfully, I haven't read anything into the text. I have let the text speak for itself.

Instead, you admit that you have read into the text "remnant" theology, which is not mentioned at all. You have ignored the language which clearly speaks of a specific group of people being ordained by God for salvation.

I am always ready to admit when I have made a mistake in interpreting scripture. You have not convinced me that I have done so.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd said:

This is a specific group of people, predetermined by God for salvation. Jesus already knows every name. The names have already been given to Him by God the Father. That specific group of people will be drawn by the Father to come to Christ. Every person so drawn will come to Jesus and follow Him

Skandelon responded:

I know that is what view you are reading into the text, but I assure you it is not what the biblical authors were attempting to communicate. Instead, they were talking about a group of elect Jews being chosen to be apostles while the rest of the Jews were being temporarily blinded in their rebellion by God so that these apostles could take the message of reconciliation to the entire world.

First, let's see if this is a specific group of people predetermined by God for salvation:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

That is a specific group of people that have been given to Jesus by the Father. Since Jesus says all of them shall come to him, it is a fact. They will come to Him.

Second, let's see if Jesus knows them by name.

John 10:3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear His voice, and He calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out."

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

Thirdly, let's see if these specific people are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him;...."

Fourthly, let's see if every person who is drawn will come to Christ.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me..."

Finally, let's see if they follow Jesus:

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

So, to summarize, every statement I made is supported by scripture. And yet, you accuse me of "reading into" the text something that isn't there and confidently assert that...

....but I assure you it is not what the biblical authors were attempting to communicate

The text is clear.

You are the one "reading into" the text something that isn't there and the biblical author was most certainly attempting to communicate exactly what is plainly said... you just don't want to accept it because it is contrary to what you want to believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

The reason Jesus gave for their unbelief is that they were not of His sheep. He didn't say they weren't His sheep because they didn't believe. He said they didn't believe because they weren't His sheep.

At the risk of sounding like my first grade daughter I must continue asking, "Why?"

Why are they his sheep who are beleiving while the rest are not? That is point I'm trying to get to by pointing you to the historical context of that day. I know you don't like looking at other scripture because you think I'm trying to force my view into this text, but you are doing the same thing whether you realize it or not. In reference to John 6 you go to John 10 to use the sheep analogy. I'm fine with that, but then you won't let me bring in John 12:39-41 which actually says, "this is why they were unable to believe." Why?

And why not look at Romans 11 to see how Paul explains the condition of the Jews at this time? Don't you think that can bring clarity to our discussion?

I understand your argument rests on the "remnant" theory. I understand that you believe the reason the Jews are not believing is because they have been hardened. I don't deny that to be true.

Ok, let's stop there. If you agree with me that the Jews are not able to believe because they are being hardened, then it would be significant to point out 3 major points.

1. The hardening is IS NOT FROM BIRTH. In other words they weren't born in this condition as Calvinism's doctrine of "Total Depravity" suggests.

2. The judicial hardening is unique to Israel. Read Acts 28:28, where Paul says the Jews are hardened but the "Gentiles will listen."

3. The judicial hardening of Israel is TEMPORARY.

Now, all three of these point uncut Calvinism's claims because it shows that the condition of the Jews in John 6 is not the same for all mankind from birth and they those Jews, though currently being blinded, might come to faith if they leave their unbelief (read Rm 11). This would be impossible if they were the "non-elect" of the Calvinistic system. Do you understand? You don't have to agree, but I need to know you at least understand my arguments.

Jesus doesn't put conditions on these statements. He doesn't say... "Those the Father has given to Me during this time of hardening of the Jews will come to Me.

Nor does he say, "Those the Father has given Me from all mankind for all time will come to Me."

Later on, We'll open the invitation up for anyone who wants to believe the gospel, but for now, it is only open to those the Father has given Me."

Actually, he does say something like that. "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12 so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' " and later... "When I'm lifted up I will draw all men to myself."

Isn't that what you are claiming that He says? They are not chosen by God for salvation. Therefore, God will not draw them by Holy Spirit, God will not regenerate them, God will not bring them into a salvific relationship with Jesus Christ.

Almost. They [Israel] is not chosen to hear the gospel at this time otherwise they might see, hear, understand and repent (see Acts 28, Mark 4, John 12, etc). He had to blind them in their rebellious state so as to accomplish his ultimate purposes. The cross and the ingrafting of the Gentiles into his church. (read Rm 11)

The "hardening" of the Jewish people is to the benefit of the Gentiles, since the Jewish people persecute the Christian believers who turn to the Gentiles with the gospel.

Correct. We agree.

The remnant among the Jewish people is not hardened, they come to salvation as the Gentiles do. There may even be Jews once hardened (like Paul), who are children of promise and will be grafted back into the vine.

Actually, the remnant, like Paul, was uniquely called as an apostle. The Gentiles believed through their message. Paul's Apostolic authority was based upon the uniqueness of his effectual call. Proof that Jonah was effectually called to preach to Ninevah is not proof that those who believed his message were effectually/irresistibly draw to faith.

Please understand that even non-Calvinists affirm that God works effectually in the lives of his prophets, messengers, apostles, to ensure his Words are correctly delivered so that all men are "without excuse."

When Paul says the hardening has taken place until the fulness of the Gentiles, "thus all Israel will be saved", he isn't saying all the Jews will be saved. He is saying all the children of promise (true "Israel" comprised of both Jew and Gentile) will be saved.

I agree.

 

[Skandelon]

canadyjd said: Skandelon responded:
First, let's see if this is a specific group of people predetermined by God for salvation:

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

That is a specific group of people that have been given to Jesus by the Father. Since Jesus says all of them shall come to him, it is a fact. They will come to Him.

Again, we agree. The remnant of Israel was specifically and individually hand picked by God. They will come to him. Remember we do believe God does effectually work to bring about his WORD and his CHURCH.

Second, let's see if Jesus knows them by name.

John 10:3 "To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear His voice, and He calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out."

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

Of course He does, He walked up to Matthew and said, "Hey, Matt, follow me." And he did. We agree here too. But these were his apostles. They got to walk with the Messiah. They touch the nail scared hands, but blessed are those who DON'T SEE and still believe.

They were chosen for a noble purpose. We believe through their message. (Read John 17)

We are the "other flock" that Jesus referred to when he said, " I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also."

Don't you see how this analogy of the sheep coordinates perfectly with the vine and branches in Romans 11?

Those who are not being cut off and those being grafted into the vine are his SHEEP (the remnant and Gentiles). But as Paul explains, the Gentiles shouldn't boast lest they are cut off and the natural branches (Israel) can be grafted back into the vine if they leave their unbelief. If you disagree, then explain how you think these two analogies fit together?

Thirdly, let's see if these specific people are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him;...."

We agree, which is why Jesus says he that he will draw all men to himself when he is raised up. (Jn 12)

Fourthly, let's see if every person who is drawn will come to Christ.

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me..."

You made the mistake of equating those being drawn to those given to Christ. Yes, the remnant, who are being drawn at that time will come to him. God used the necessary means to convince them to come (i.e. a blinding light, miracles, let them touch the nail scars, explaining parables etc), but when he sends them out with the gospel message after he is raised up he will draw all men to himself.

You are the one "reading into" the text something that isn't there and the biblical author was most certainly attempting to communicate exactly what is plainly said... you just don't want to accept it because it is contrary to what you want to believe.

peace to youraying:

I understand how you believe that. I used to believe like you for many years. I know it is very difficult to read a text from another perspective from what you are used to, but please be objective and just consider another perspective. I challenge you to explain Romans 11 and the concept of Judicial hardening within your system of belief, I don't believe it can fit. That is why I am no longer a Calvinist. But, even if you never agree, you must at least understand my view...and based upon the questions and responses so far you still don't really know what I and other "arminian scholars" believe about these things. In my experience, most Calvinists don't.

 

[canadyjd]

Again, we agree. The remnant of Israel was specifically and individually hand picked by God. They will come to him. Remember we do believe God does effectually work to bring about his WORD and his CHURCH.

But there is no "remnant" language in the text. He is not just speaking of the remnant. Jesus says He will die for them. He will raise them up. Jesus is talking about all of those He will bring to salvation, that have been given to Him by the Father.

You are attempting to limit the "remnant" to the Apostles, which is not supported by the text.

We agree, which is why Jesus says he that he will draw all men to himself when he is raised up. (Jn 12)

And so the question, does "all men" mean Jesus will draw every single person on the planet that has ever lived without exception... or every type of person (i.e. Jew and Gentile) without distinction?

You made the mistake of equating those being drawn to those given to Christ.

That is not a mistake. It is very clear from the text that those being drawn are, in fact, those that have been given to Jesus by the Father. The context does not support any other interpretation.

Yes, the remnant, who are being drawn at that time will come to him. God used the necessary means to convince them to come (i.e. a blinding light, miracles, let them touch the nail scars, explaining parables etc), but when he sends them out with the gospel message after he is raised up he will draw all men to himself.

I understand your argument. I don't believe scripture supports it.

Does "all men" mean every single person that has ever lived?

I understand how you believe that. I used to believe like you for many years. I know it is very difficult to read a text from another perspective from what you are used to, but please be objective and just consider another perspective.

Brother, just to be plain, no one taught me this perspective. I read the text and believed what it plainly said. It is just that simple. I had never even heard of "calvinism" or "armininism" before that.

I challenge you to explain Romans 11 and the concept of Judicial hardening within your system of belief, I don't believe it can fit.

I don't hold to a "calvinist" belief "system". I believe what scripture says. I have already explained my perspective on Romans 9-11.

But, even if you never agree, you must at least understand my view...and based upon the questions and responses so far you still don't really know what I and other "arminian scholars" believe about these things. In my experience, most Calvinists don't.

I will do my best to express what I believe that you believe.

You believe the language of John concerning the "drawing' and the "sheep" refer only to the "remnant" which is, perhaps, only related to the Apostles who had been chosen by God to take the Gospel message to the world.

The reason those who reject Jesus in unbelief do so is because of "Judicial hardening" by God because of past disobedience within the Jewish nation. This "judicial hardening" is only temporary, so that the gospel will go the gentile nations. After the "fullness" of the gentiles occurs, the hardening will be lifted and the Jews will be grafted back into the "vine".

When the gospel goes to the Gentiles, "all men" will be drawn, without exception, to Jesus Christ so they will have the free will choice to accept or reject His offer of salvation.

Those who believe have been predestined by God (in general, not specifically) to be conformed to the image of His Son.

Those who believe have been "elected" by God to the adoption as sons based on God seeing through time and knowing who will accept Jesus and reject Jesus. God "elects" based on that "foreknowledge".

Those who believe are regenerated by Holy Spirit once they have expressed faith in Jesus of their own free will choice.

How did I do?

peace to youraying:

 

[Skandelon]

But there is no "remnant" language in the text. He is not just speaking of the remnant. Jesus says He will die for them. He will raise them up. Jesus is talking about all of those He will bring to salvation, that have been given to Him by the Father.

There is no "sheep" language in that particular text either, but you agree that the Remnant of Israel are at least represented in the audience when Jesus is preaching in John 6, don't you? You also believe there are those being blinded by God from Israel in that audience, don't you?

If so, then how does that not apply? How can that not be important in understanding the meaning of Jesus' words?

You are attempting to limit the "remnant" to the Apostles, which is not supported by the text.

I didn't mean to suggests that there are only 12 from Israel being reserved, those are just the most prominent representatives of that group present in the audience of John 6. Jesus even refers to them in this context when he says, "60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." 70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve?

And so the question, does "all men" mean Jesus will draw every single person on the planet that has ever lived without exception... or every type of person (i.e. Jew and Gentile) without distinction?

Well, depends on what dogma you are seeking to support. The latter view does less damage to your view, but I'm really fine with either. God does tell his disciples to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature...without exception or distinction. I believe the gospel is the appointed means God uses to draw men to himself so that fits...

That is not a mistake. It is very clear from the text that those being drawn are, in fact, those that have been given to Jesus by the Father. The context does not support any other interpretation. I understand your argument. I don't believe scripture supports it.

Again, I agree. those being given to Christ at that moment in time were being drawn. It was given to a select few in Israel to be followers of Christ the REST will come to believe through their message.

You believe the language of John concerning the "drawing' and the "sheep" refer only to the "remnant" which is, perhaps, only related to the Apostles who had been chosen by God to take the Gospel message to the world.

Take out the word "only" and you are getting closer. I believe there others who will be drawn and who will be brought into the fold or grafted into the vine...as explained earlier. Please tell me what you think the "vine" represents in Romans 11?

The reason those who reject Jesus in unbelief do so is because of "Judicial hardening" by God because of past disobedience within the Jewish nation.

Close. It's not merely because of past disobedience that they are blinded. Yes, they have been a rebellious and obstinate people despite God holding out his hands to them all day long. God is blinding them in that state of rebellion so that they won't see, hear and understand otherwise they might believe and repent. God knows the power of the clearly preached gospel so he is keeping them from seeing it at this time. Do you agree or disagree and why?

Those who believe have been "elected" by God to the adoption as sons based on God seeing through time and knowing who will accept Jesus and reject Jesus. God "elects" based on that "foreknowledge".

Actually, I think believers have also be predestined to be adopted as sons because that is something all believers are still eagerly awaiting with the redemption of our bodies. Believers have been predestined to be conformed to Christ's imagine and adopted. I affirm that foreknowledge is intimate knowledge of someone, not mere foresight. God's foreknowledge of someone is not a determination of that person's choices and behavior.