Please share your views on preservation

timothy 1769 · Dec 7, 2003

Please share your views on Bible preservation.

1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?
2) How does He accomplish this? How do you know this?
3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?
4) Does preservation apply, in any sense, to translations? How do you know this?
5) Are the efforts of textual critics part of the preservation process? How do you know this?

Thanks!

BrianT · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?
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Yes. From scripture.

2) How does He accomplish this? How do you know this?
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In the range of translations and manuscripts throughout history. I know this because 1. they exist (the scriptures didn't cease to exist, thanks to the Holy Spirit contintually moving men to work on copying/translating/etc.) and 2. historically a range is how the scriptures were available to men (as opposed to a single exclusive document).

3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?
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Both. From the scriptures.

4) Does preservation apply, in any sense, to translations? How do you know this?
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Yes. Because the early church used a Greek translation of the OT, because the later church used a Latin translation of the Bible, and because we today use translations of various languages.

5) Are the efforts of textual critics part of the preservation process? How do you know this?
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Yes. Because any act of copying/compiling/translating involves some level of textual criticism - from the NT authors, to ancient translators, to the early church fathers, to Masorete scribes, to Erasmus, to Luther, to the KJV translators, to Westcott & Hort, to any translator of any Bible in all of history - all employed textual criticism to some degree. Since copying/compiling/translating is how God's word was preserved, textual criticism is part of that process.

God bless,
Brian

timothy 1769 · Dec 7, 2003

Thanks, Brian! One question I forgot:

1.5) With what accuracy does God preserve His Word? How do you know this?

robycop3 · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
[QB] Please share your views on Bible preservation.

1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?

Yes, He HAS promised to preserve His word, in several Scriptures. How do I know this; how do I know it's not just circular reasoning, assuming the Scriptures are true simply because they're old, and still exist? Because of the fulfillment of prophecies, right down the line. Anyone who frequently reads a Bible and follows current events knows this. The existence, and rapid rise to power of modern Israel are easily-seen examples. I have faith in the unseen by proof of the seen.

2) How does He accomplish this? How do you know this?

God uses many means. One way is that every part of His word has been in continuous use ever since He first presented it. Another way is causing copies to be stored for many years, to be found much later, as were the Dead Sea scrolls. yet another way is to cause men to pass down the Scriptures by memorization & word of mouth, especially among peoples who didn't use writing very much. And there's always His supernatural power...

How do I know this? Of all the extant ancient literature, there are many more copies of the Scriptures known than those of any other work or sets of works. And the various copies of Scripture throughout the centuries are more in agreement with each other than are the various copies of any other work(95%!). For example, all the known ancient copies of the Iliad are only in about 75% agreement. Gosh, all the known copies of a much-more recent work, Little Red Riding Hood, aren't much better! Very clearly, there's a Power at work here much-greater than anything done by men alone.[/b]

3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?

God preserves/presents BOTH. How do I know? No one language will translate 100% into any other, and God made'em all. For example, if we translated virtually any German Bible sich as Luther's into English, the translation wouldn't exactly match any other English translation made directly from the ancient mss. And no two English translations match exactly. There are words in the mss that simply don't have an English equivalent, and I'm sure that's true for any other language. (The same is true for virtually all currently-used languages. They each have words unique to that language, with no equivalent in any other tongue.)

I doubt if the Masoretic Texts are in the same Hebrew that Moses used-if he wrote in Hebrew at all. And at least some of our NT Scriptures may have been originally written in Hebrew. We don't know how many copies removed that any of the mss known to us are removed from the original writings. A significant fact is that God apparently chose NOT to preserve the very first writings of His word.[/b]

4) Does preservation apply, in any sense, to translations? How do you know this?

Yes, it does. Without any translations, how would anyone who doesn't read Hebrew or Koine Greek(most of the world) know the first sentence of God's word? And remember what I said earlier about the Masoretic Texts most likely being in the Hebrew that Moses used(if he didn't use Egyptian)? Almost certainly, all the mss known to us are at least in part translations. This is known from the Scriptures themselves, especially where Paul reminds us that if someone is speaking in a language unknown to his/her audience, the words are gibberish to them-and the miracle in in Acts where the audience at the first pentecost heard the preaching in his own language, whatever it was.

And let us not forget that those who first wrote any part of God's word wrote it in his own language, not ours. Clearly, translation of His word is part of God's will![/b}

5) Are the efforts of textual critics part of the preservation process? How do you know this?

Yes, they are. The Scriptures say to "test the spirits", and if no one examined the authenticity of any work called Scripture, then anyone could introduce any pious-sounding writing as Scripture, or alter them to fit a given set of doctrines, such as the LDS & JWs have done.

Thanks!

You're quite welcome!
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Askjo · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by BrianT:
Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?

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Yes. From scripture.

quote:
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3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?

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Both. From the scriptures.
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What Scripture?

BrianT · Dec 7, 2003

The scriptures that were true before 1611, not just after.

tinytim · Dec 7, 2003

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by timothy 1769:
1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?

Click to expand...

Yes. From scripture.

2) How does He accomplish this? How do you know this?
Click to expand...

In the range of translations and manuscripts throughout history. I know this because 1. they exist (the scriptures didn't cease to exist, thanks to the Holy Spirit contintually moving men to work on copying/translating/etc.) and 2. historically a range is how the scriptures were available to men (as opposed to a single exclusive document).

3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?
Click to expand...

Both. From the scriptures.

4) Does preservation apply, in any sense, to translations? How do you know this?
Click to expand...

Yes. Because the early church used a Greek translation of the OT, because the later church used a Latin translation of the Bible, and because we today use translations of various languages.

5) Are the efforts of textual critics part of the preservation process? How do you know this?
Click to expand...

Yes. Because any act of copying/compiling/translating involves some level of textual criticism - from the NT authors, to ancient translators, to the early church fathers, to Masorete scribes, to Erasmus, to Luther, to the KJV translators, to Westcott & Hort, to any translator of any Bible in all of history - all employed textual criticism to some degree. Since copying/compiling/translating is how God's word was preserved, textual criticism is part of that process.

God bless,
Brian </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely

timothy 1769 · Dec 8, 2003

Originally posted by timothy 1769:

1) Has God promised to preserve his Word? How do you know this?

It is promised over and over again in His Word.

1.5) With what accuracy does God preserve His Word? How do you know this?

100%.

Matthew 5:18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished."

Psalms 12:6
The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.

Psalms 119:160
Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever

Isaiah 40:8
The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

2) How does He accomplish this? How do you know this?

I don't know. He may accomplish this through His providence. Praise God I don't have to know how for God to keep His promises.

3) Does God preserve actual words, or just basic ideas? How do you know this?

Words, because that's what the Bible often refers to.

4) Does preservation apply, in any sense, to translations? How do you know this?

I think so, as ancient versions can help identify the correct meaning of the Greek and Hebrew. I also think that God providentially has a hand in making unusually accurate translations at times so that his Word may be known by the common people. I think this is so because God has commanded us, and for such commands to be effective they must be in a language that can be understood. God doesn't anywhere command all men to learn Hebrew and Greek.

But I personally can't make a rock solid case for this since I can't tie this to obvious, specific promises in God's Word.

5) Are the efforts of textual critics part of the preservation process? How do you know this?

I guess anything is possible, but since modern textual critics effectively deny preservation and treat the Holy Scriptures just as a book, I really really doubt it. I'm convinced their principles will never lead them to the uncorrupted Word of God, e.g. preferring the harder reading is insanity if one believes the originals to be perfect.

Certainly the Bible doesn't even hint that such a faithless, man-centered process would somehow be used to reestablish His pure Words.

To me this comes off a secular version of reinspiration, but with a heavy dose of doubt mixed into the final result.

timothy 1769 · Dec 8, 2003

Once I get serveral responses, I will use those responses to create a poll, God willing.

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