Please sort this out...

I suppose it eliminates the idea of judgment in the mind of some, but not according to the word of God. According to Romans 9, God shows mercy to whom He will. Even if you could say that God already knows what you are going to do (He does) you would be wrong to say that He could not judge you for it.

Romans 9:19-23
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

We may not be able to understand everything in the Bible, but we can't go erasing the clear teachings of scripture just because we don't get it. It doesn't cause me concern to believe that God can foreknow everything I ever do while still maintaining my free will and responsibility to live holy. It just means that He is God and I am not.

Psalms 131:1 A Song of degrees of David. LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me.

 

What he's saying isn't making sense to me.

1. Yes, we have free will.

2. Yes, God judges sin and yes, a day of judgment is coming for all of us.

3. Yes, God knows everything. He knows what we will do in the next second, in the next minute, the next hour, the next day and so on and son.

I don't understand how or why he's saying that number 3 makes number 1 not true. Yes, we have free will. Yes, God knows what we're going to do. I don't understand why he thinks both of these can't be true.

 

IT is based on faulty thinking. The fact that an outcome is known beforehand does not eliminate responsibility. Something is wrong when it is wrong, not when it is not known about beforehand.

This is no problem for free will. Free will is not the ability to do anything at all. Man has free will, but isn't free to spend the next ten days (or ten minutes) underwater without a mechanical breathing appartus. Free will means that one can operate freely according to his nature. He can do what he wants to do. And so he does. God's knowledge (and decree of determination, IMO) does not limit one's free will. One's free will operates within the bounds of God's knowledge and plan.

This is a typical question from someone who has not been taught to think critically about worldview issues. It is a common ruse to try to undermine God. This guy may be honest in asking it. Most are not.

But as Mark Twain was reported to have said, It is not the things I don't understand about God that bother me; it is the things I do understand. This questioner has plenty of things he does understand to respond to. To chase a rabbit trail is the ultimate example of denial of responsibility.

 

Some may use it as a ruse, but many honest inquiring Christians ask these same questions. I believe the problem lies with trying to impose a human temporal understanding of determinism on a God who is beyond the temporal.

 

Didn't I say that?

 

Didn't I say that? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes you did.

 

Those that are not saved see Jesus that way. They are not satisfied with Him. When they see Him, there is no beauty that they should desire Him (Isa 53:1-3; 1Cor 2:14).

I hope this is some help. Were a person to know that God shall bring every work to judgment, Ecclesiastes 12:14 (KJV) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil, and were that person to discover they were on a path that led to destruction because of their own sin, and were that person sorrowful at offending our Righteous God, and if that person realized God is merciful to the broken hearted, then that person would convert and cry for mercy and turn from his own path. Their remaining on the path of destruction with a fatalist attitude shows they do not fear the Lord. God does know the end of a matter from the beginning. Man is shown the end result of their own sin. They are commanded to repent and turn from their wicked ways. Not all have faith, and not all fear the Lord thus there is no change in their path (Ps 55:19; Rom 3:16-18; 2Thess 3:2).

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

God vs. Evil? Or "Why evil?"

If God is truly all powerful (He is) and all knowing (He is) and all loving (He is) then why did He allow Adam and Eve to sin? Why not create them so that it was not possible to sin. Why put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden in the first place?

Many put the focus on some concept of free-will. God wanted us to choose Him of our own free will so He had to make us with the ability to choose or reject. "God didn't want a bunch of robots", they say.

I don't see us as having "free-will". The term implies the ability to choose without an outside influence. The sin in our life (both orgional sin and moral sin) influences our decisions.

Martin Luther proposed that our sin was an elephant and we were a gnat on the elephant's rear end. To the extent the gnat controls the movement of the elephant is how much control an unbeliever has over the sin in his life. If the gnat can defeat the elephant, we can defeat sin and choose God.

There are other influences in our lives. Satan and his demons influence our decisions. Other people under the control of their own sin influence our decisions.

Those who advocate the position of free-will would have the unbeliever fighting all these influences on their own and the only person in the universe that can help (God) sits on the sidelines, rooting for them I guess, but making no effort to "force His love upon us".

Fortunately for us, scripture is clear that God alone has free-will and He has decided to show mercy on His sheep. He draws them by His Spirit, who changes their very nature (regeneration), convicts them of their sin, brings them to repentance, gives them faith to believe, unifies them in their assemblies, illumines their minds with the truth of His word, and keeps them for the day of Christ's coming.

What then is the answer to the question, "Why evil? He did it for His sheep.

First, God did not create mankind because He was lonely or needed us for some reason. He created us to worship Him, ascribe glory to Him, and enjoy Him forever. To accomplish that, God had to reveal Himself to His creation.

By allowing evil into the world, God set in motion His plan that culminated in the Cross. The cross of Christ reveals something about the nature of God that could not be revealed without the fall of man.

Those who worship God in heaven will know that He loves them so much He is willing to die for them. Our understanding of that fact allows us to ascribe more glory to Him, and to appreciate and enjoy Him much more than we could have otherwise.

 

The dilemma is due to a fault in the logic.....in logic, it is, if I remember correctly, officially called a "false dilemma". It incorrectly compares two things that appear to contradict, but in fact do not.

The fault is in the emphasis on "God knowing before". This is a true statement, but applied falsely to this situation. Just because God knows exactly what we will freely choose, it does not follow that our freedom is removed.

Further, God is not limited by time. While from our perspective God knows "before", from His perspective He is eternal.....God is in one big "now". Think of it this way: Yesterday I freely chose to wear a white shirt. I freely chose this white shirt, no one forced me, it was my decision. I could have freely chosen a brown shirt, but yesterday I chose the white one of my own free will. Today, my choice (to wear a white shirt yesterday) is determined (fixed), and can't be changed. But God is not bound by time....God knew two days ago that I would freely choose a white shirt yesterday.

So the answer is quite simple if you know the quirk in the language.

 

Hi GG: I would ask first whoever this person is if they believe the Bible is the Word of God. If not, you are spinning your wheels for you will not be able to prove the believable to the unbelievable.

If the answer is yes, then ask why they do not believe Isaiah 55:8-9, "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts"?

The answer is God's thoughts are higher than theirs, so they’ll not understand. Christian faith, ituttut Galatains 1:11-12

 

Some excellent responses to this question. The questioner sounds like an Open Theist. The problem arises because he insists on defining free-will in terms of always having an alternative. Defined that way, he's right. If God infallibly knows Jones is going to wear a white shirt tomorrow, then Jones is not free to wear a brown shirt.
But who says that alternative choices is the right definition of free will? I think it's bogus. As someone else already stated, if Jones chose to wear the white shirt without being compelled by anyone else, then Jones' choice was free, regardless of whether or not God already knew that he would wear it and not the brown one.

 

Fallacy of Alternative Choices
Someone came up with this "counter-factual," a scenario that shows the fallacy of this claim about alternative choices. I've adapted it.
Jones is going to buy a parcel of land. There are two parcels available that meet his criteria, one in Marinette, WI and one across the river in Menominne, MI.
Smith owns the parcel in Marinette and wants Jones to buy it. Unknown to Jones, Smith has invented a Hypno-Ray Gun. If Jones attempts to buy the parcel in Menominee, Smith will hypnotize him and tell him to buy the one in Marinette.
Jones is looking at the two brochures. Before Smith can shoot him with the Hypno-Ray Gun, he chooses to buy the parcel in Marinette. With an evil snicker Smith realizes that Jones, of his own free will, chose the parcel in Marinette, even though Jones really was determined to buy it anyways.
Many philosophers have conceded that this counter-factual proves that alternative choices is not a true definition of free will.

 

It can't be "explained away".
There is an answer but we are unable to find it.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

And in reality you/we don't want to know it:

John 3
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Stop trying to blame God for your evil and come to the light.

HankD

 

I just don't see it as being complicated.

1. There is no conflict in God's foreknowledge and our free will.

2. There is no conflict in a being not limited by time (God) determining something in time.

 

I don't see how people make this concept so confusing, because it is not confusing at all. Just because God can "see into the future" does not mean that He takes away or changes any of the choices that we make and our free will. Kind of like if you were looking out your window and watching children playing outside and you could fast foward into the future and watch what the children were doing the next day, etc. You would know what the children were going to do beforehand, but that would not change actions that the children choose to do themselves (their free will).

 

Man ya'll just make it more complicated then need be

Deborah excellent last post - I agree with you atm

Just answer the question folks - dont go into a long diatribe about how the question is evil incarnate to you - it really clogs up the boards - just like this post is

 

Granny

His mind is made up. It has been my experience that once someone is losing a debate and they fall back into name-calling and personal attacks, you are better off moving on to something else. Don't forget his name and avoid him in the future. He will forge a god in his own mind according to his own liking and according to what makes him feel the best, rather than on the clear teaching of scripture.

 

The "God is beyond time" theory to explain predestination is a popular one, but it seems to posit a universe where time unwinds with little or no divine intervention. God simply sees things happen and then He reacts. But there's no question that God does ordain certain events (the Crucifixion, for example), so why can He not direct various episodes in my life to suit His purposes? Would I know the difference if my thoughts were influenced by Him or came fully from my own heart? I doubt it. I sometimes wonder why we get so upset about free will, when we're not aware of when (or if) it is being violated. In any case, it's a fallacy to assume free will (defined as autonomous self-determination) is necessary for moral responsibility. No biblical passage demands that connection.