Pledge of Allegiance not what the Founding Fathers had in mind

[asterisktom]

I once taught in a Christian school that started every day with the Pledge of Allegiance. For many of the students, in Paul Simon's words, it was merely a Pledge of Allegiance "to the wall". I do not believe that we should have this pledge any more. Not that I am Anti-American, but pro-American (as far as allegiance to an earthly country is called for).

Question to those of you who argue *for this pledge: Which one of the writers of the Federalist Papers would have supported this pledge - an innovation of centuries later? Or which of the other founding fathers would have supported it?

Another reason I am against even having a pledge is that it is all symbol and no substance. Instead of wasting time forcing students to mouth words for which they have no understanding or frame of reference why not focus more on teaching the Constitution (warts and all) and writings like the Federalist Papers?

Why not teach, carefully and honestly, a history of our country, including both high and low points, examples exemplary as well as those cautionary?

 

[KenH]

and writings like the Federalist Papers?

Yes, and don't forget the Anti-Federalist Papers.

 

[asterisktom]

Yes, and don't forget the Anti-Federalist Papers.

By all means. Good point.

 

[Reynolds]

I once taught in a Christian school that started every day with the Pledge of Allegiance. For many of the students, in Paul Simon's words, it was merely a Pledge of Allegiance "to the wall". I do not believe that we should have this pledge any more. Not that I am Anti-American, but pro-American (as far as allegiance to an earthly country is called for).

Question to those of you who argue *for this pledge: Which one of the writers of the Federalist Papers would have supported this pledge - an innovation of centuries later? Or which of the other founding fathers would have supported it?

Another reason I am against even having a pledge is that it is all symbol and no substance. Instead of wasting time forcing students to mouth words for which they have no understanding or frame of reference why not focus more on teaching the Constitution (warts and all) and writings like the Federalist Papers?

Why not teach, carefully and honestly, a history of our country, including both high and low points, examples exemplary as well as those cautionary?

Say the pledge and then have a class on the Constitution.

 

[rsr]

The pledge is recited each morning at the local high school. I assume it's recited throughout the district.

Enforced patriotism, like enforced religion, is of little value, IMO. History should be taught, warts and all, but you can't really do it in a lot of classes.

 

[Reynolds]

The pledge is recited each morning at the local high school. I assume it's recited throughout the district.

Enforced patriotism, like enforced religion, is of little value, IMO. History should be taught, warts and all, but you can't really do it in a lot of classes.

You can teach history anywhere.

 

[Scarlett O.]

I taught for over three decades in an handful of schools in two districts. We said the pledge every morning. I always taught what the words mean and the history of the pledge even if I was teaching math.

Lots of teachers do that.

I don't understand the aversion to it nor the assumption that students don't know what it means.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't understand the aversion to it nor the assumption that students don't know what it means.

I can help. They do not like the flag or the pledge because they do not like what they see it represents, which is the founding of this country. Today those ideas are called "the far right". This country was founded on Judeo Christian principles. The primary ideas of this country were all Christian based. There is a current move to minimize and delete American history so that people do not try to hold to those values. They want those values gone. The easiest way to get rid of them is to move them out of sight. So they pretend that the flag and the pledge are a problem and we should just forget them. I can tell you in Orange county Florida the school system has the students stand and recite the pledge.

By the way what is called "enforced patriotism" today was just normal every day patriotism originally.

 

[asterisktom]

Lots of teachers do that.

I don't understand the aversion to it nor the assumption that students don't know what it means.

Lots of teachers do lots of things I wouldn't.

The aversion is twofold, for me at least. The practice is not Christian in spirit. And, as I wrote, exactly the kind of thing that the Founding Fathers were against.

I was never for teaching robotlike clones mouthing words we give them. I always rather had my students think before they speak.

 

[asterisktom]

I can help. They do not like the flag or the pledge because they do not like what they see it represents, which is the founding of this country.

Quite mistaken. Judging by this and your other comments about our country being Judeo-Christian I can safely say that you have not carefully studied our history. I suggest you read some biographies of some of our early framers of the Constitution, presidents, and leaders. You would be hard-pressed to find a true Christian in the whole lot.

By the way what is called "enforced patriotism" today was just normal every day patriotism originally.

Really? Saying the pledge back in the first century? It was an invention of Francis Bellamy somewhere around 1890 (thereabouts). The "under God" part was not added till the 1950's. Now many Christians act like it is one of the creeds.

 

[Revmitchell]

Quite mistaken. Judging by this and your other comments about our country being Judeo-Christian I can safely say that you have not carefully studied our history. I suggest you read some biographies of some of our early framers of the Constitution, presidents, and leaders. You would be hard-pressed to find a true Christian in the whole lot.

Nothing true about this post

 

[asterisktom]

Nothing true about this post

Afraid to actually research. I understand.

 

[Salty]

If it were up to me - I would have my class say the pledge one day a week.
Also as previously stated - it was recommended that the constitution be taught following the pledge
Another possibility - show this video - click here

We are not pledging to a wall or a piece of cloth "of the USA for which it stands"

I am proud to say the pledge - realizing what so many have paid for the freedom
in the USA. I realize we are not perfect -but we are one of the best countries in the world.

 

[InTheLight]

I once taught in a Christian school that started every day with the Pledge of Allegiance. For many of the students, in Paul Simon's words, it was merely a Pledge of Allegiance "to the wall".

So you are a mind reader. I always thought that would come in handy when negotiating.

I do not believe that we should have this pledge any more. Not that I am Anti-American, but pro-American (as far as allegiance to an earthly country is called for).

Question to those of you who argue *for this pledge: Which one of the writers of the Federalist Papers would have supported this pledge - an innovation of centuries later? Or which of the other founding fathers would have supported it?

Who cares? Is their approval the gold standard? Many of those people were slave owners. Do you support them?

Another reason I am against even having a pledge is that it is all symbol and no substance. Instead of wasting time forcing students to mouth words for which they have no understanding or frame of reference

That mind reading ability--does it ever interfere in daily life? It's an astonishing skill.

why not focus more on teaching the Constitution (warts and all) and writings like the Federalist Papers?

How do you know these things are going untaught in geographies you have no connection with?

Why not teach, carefully and honestly, a history of our country, including both high and low points, examples exemplary as well as those cautionary?

How do you know these things are not being taught?

 

[InTheLight]

The aversion is twofold, for me at least. The practice is not Christian in spirit. And, as I wrote, exactly the kind of thing that the Founding Fathers were against.

You've stated the founding fathers were against it (or would be against it) twice now--in the thread title and just now in this post. You haven't shown WHY they would be against it. How about telling us why they would oppose it.

Also, capitalization of Founding Fathers is noted, as if they are to be revered.

 

[FollowTheWay]

I can help. They do not like the flag or the pledge because they do not like what they see it represents, which is the founding of this country. Today those ideas are called "the far right". This country was founded on Judeo Christian principles. The primary ideas of this country were all Christian based. There is a current move to minimize and delete American history so that people do not try to hold to those values. They want those values gone. The easiest way to get rid of them is to move them out of sight. So they pretend that the flag and the pledge are a problem and we should just forget them. I can tell you in Orange county Florida the school system has the students stand and recite the pledge.

By the way what is called "enforced patriotism" today was just normal every day patriotism originally.

The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”

 

[InTheLight]

The Myth of a Christian Nation: How the Quest for Political Power Is Destroying the Church - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

“America wasn’t founded as a theocracy,” he said. “America was founded by people trying to escape theocracies. Never in history have we had a Christian theocracy where it wasn’t bloody and barbaric. That’s why our Constitution wisely put in a separation of church and state.

“I am sorry to tell you,” he continued, “that America is not the light of the world and the hope of the world. The light of the world and the hope of the world is Jesus Christ.”

That's a nice strawman you got there.

 

[asterisktom]

Also, capitalization of Founding Fathers is noted, as if they are to be revered.

I was being ironic. To me they are just founders. To many who are determined to see the founders as Christians (on the flimsiest of proof) they are "Founding Fathers".

 

[asterisktom]

So you are a mind reader. I always thought that would come in handy when negotiating.

No, that would be you, not me. My comment is based on talking to my students, high school, especially. The Paul Simon reference is mine, but the general point was made by many of them.

I have taught for twenty years. Are you a teacher?

 

[asterisktom]

You've stated the founding fathers were against it (or would be against it) twice now--in the thread title and just now in this post. You haven't shown WHY they would be against it. How about telling us why they would oppose it.

I was going to do just that, but decided against it. If someone more civil responds I might. You, with all your snideness, are not worth the trouble.