Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

[Claudia_T]

Dee Jay,

by any chance did you get the part where I said HOW TO do everthing? as in through faith and the power of God?

hmmmm?

Like you know, it goes like this, if I said you have to do good works, you have to do them out of the motive of love, you have to do them through the power of God and by faith, and you have to trust alone in the atoning blood of Christ...

the thing for you to do isnt what you did, namely go through there and make like Im just not humble enough because I said you have to do good works but Im taking credit for them... and so forth

could you maybe think this through a little bit?



Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Nah.. I dreamed I saw an obituary of a friend of mine...
A very righteous woman... so I had to email her to see if things were ok.

Anyway, I'll agree to a certain point that you can tell by the fruits, but ultimately, noone really knows....
Only God. And if you say you truly know, you are playing God, and that ain't good...

I can't imagine making a judgement statement after someone died...
I have suspicions, but that is all.
Only God know whether that person was saved.
SFIC, do you believe in OSAS? I thought you did, but you have confused me lately... Now I wonder what you really believe.

I am going to try to go back to sleep.
good night.

I dont know anything about Baptist beliefs but maybe he believes you persevere to the end?

which is what I THOUGHT all of you believed but maybe Im wrong?

 

[tinytim]

I believe we are preserved until the end... the Holy Spirit seals us until the day of redemption. He seals us with Christ's righteousness, not our own.

I would also say "perservere" as long as that doesn't mean complete perfection...
But the way I have been understanding you all is that you have to be completely perfect by the time you die, or you will not go to Heaven... and that is impossible.

My only "perfection" is Jesus.

I can understand you, Claudia, not believing a suicide goes to Heaven, you don't believe in OSAS....
But SFIC contradicts himself. He has said he believes in OSAS
He says... Joe gets saved, he is always saved, unless he commits a sin, then dies, then he is not saved.
That is not OSAS... that is still conditional upon what the person does.
That is works...
According to SFIC's logic, Jesus may know Joe, but at Judgement, Jesus can say "depart, I NEVER knew you"
Which would make Jesus a liar.
IF JESUS KNOWS YOU TODAY AS HIS CHILD, HE WILL ALWAYS KNOW YOU.
If at anytime in the future He tells you He doesn't know you He would be lying.
Do you know Jesus? Do you have a relationship with Jesus? If so, rest assured that you will go to Heaven.

If you didn't do anything to get saved, you can't do anything to stay saved, and you can't do anything to get unsaved.

Christ does it all...

 

[Shiloh]

A person that is saved, even if he gets drunk is still not a drunkard.
He is a misguided child of God...

And aren't we taking the whole passage out of context anyway? I mean the context of that part of Revelation is how Great Heaven is going to be...

Of course there will not be any drukards, murderers, or liars there...
But of course there will not be any preachers there either... we won't need one... because there will not be any sinners there... we will all be in our glorified body, completely sanctified...

To claim that you must be perfect base on how you live your life in order to enter Heaven is a works based religion. Period.
Our only perfection is the blood of Jesus that has covered us.

He may have gotten there by the skin of his teeth, and may have lost every reward he would have had, but If he has been saved, he is still a child of God.

Remember Jesus said that the ones that comes to Him, he will IN NO WISE, cast out.

NOthing can separate us from the love of God, not even alcohol.

Unless you think that alcohol is stronger than the blood of my Savior.

Now having said that... if a person can rebel, rebel, and rebel, and never shows any works, I would doubt that person was saved...

Fish don't walk on dry land.
Cows don't Bark.
Dogs don't meow.
And Christians don't stay away from Christ.

That is the new nature in us....
But that does not mean we must be perfect, or we are all going to Hell.

If a person asks God to save them, based on what Jesus did at Calvary, at that point they are declared righteous. A judicial act of God that cannot be reversed.

So, if they died drunk, they are still going to Heaven.
I wouldn't want to be in their shoes... but then again, I really don't want to be in my shoes either... none of us, not even you "perfect' ones will be able to look God in the eye, come judgement day. By Tiny Tim

Does that answer the question SFIC.
In this whole mess this is the BEST post! 100%

Thank you Tim

 

[Shiloh]

Claudia: I dont know anything about Baptist beliefs but ...................

This the first thing she ever said that makes sense!


but....here comes her ol goat again

 

[Claudia_T]

Tim,


I think from having been to those other threads about suicide that I view things somewhat differently than the others on "my side"...

I believe that in some circumstances people who commit suicide would go to heaven... and actually I believe in probably every situation besides suicide it would be the same way... because God looks at the heart, etc and so on.

So while no matter how you slice it, suicide is murder, I think... still, I dont think everyone who commits suicide will be lost.

Because there are the mentally ill... and so on...


But I definitely agree more with SFIC and the guy with the eagle picture than I do with the other people here.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Tim said:

"If you didn't do anything to get saved, you can't do anything to stay saved, and you can't do anything to get unsaved."


I have to disagree, you made a CHOICE.


"Take up your cross and follow Me" the disciples along with everyone else made that CHOICE to go ahead and follow Jesus...


John 6:
66: From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

 

[Shiloh]

If you didn't do anything to get saved, you can't do anything to stay saved, and you can't do anything to get unsaved.

Christ does it all... by Tim

You are RIGHT! These people have a very small concept of God.

I'm disappointed in standing, I thought he was a Baptist. A Baptist never gives any credence to a person getting away with sin! Sin always carries a price tag, Moses, Noah, Lot, David, for examples. Standing doesn't even believe Noah is in Heaven even though he is mentioned in Faiths hall of fame. However, Paul said that when a person receives Christ by Grace through Faith and repenting of their sin of unbelief THEY ARE SAVED! Saved NOW and fOREVER. I'm soooo glad I don't have to sit on my hands and be so wired up making sure I don't break the speed limit or something to send me to hell if I'm not confessed up! Or, I'm sure glad I'm not waiting for some goat to take my sins somewhere so I can be finally saved and Christ can say NOW, FINALLY WHAT I STARTED IS REALLY FINISHED!
Wouldn't you be afraid that the sometime in the space of eternity the goat might just come back? After this bunch of cooks don't believe in hell. What would happen to Salvation then? YOU TALK ABOUT A RIDICULOUS DOCTRINE:laugh:

 

[Claudia_T]

Tim

OK I think I get it now, so your idea of perservering to the end means that you hold onto your belief in Christ but really you cant do otherwise since God holds you there involuntarily anyway regardless of your choice? Or He wont allow you to choose not to anyway?

Im not really familiar with all these differing views on this at all. it is all new to me. And I didnt really realize that Baptists had so many differing viewpoints either.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

well now that I think of it, where did all the thing go where they always say "well he must of not really been one of us since he went out from us" ??

I thought you guys who believe this way always claim when someone does something like murder or whatever, that well they must of never really been saved anyway???

what happened to THAT idea in all of this?


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Wait, I think I get it now... is it because if its yourself or a family member then you cant hardly just say they hadnt really known Christ at all or were never saved then to begin with...

instead you'd have to go with this other idea that they WERE Christians and that murder or suicide or whatever is OKAY... and that once you are saved you cant be unsaved?

so its like some sort of a double standard?

maybe Im getting some of these different things confused, I am not sure..

Im not really up on all of this Once Saved always Saved stuff or the Calvinism and all of that..

 

[Claudia_T]

To be truly honest about this, WOW I cannot imagine how you guys could do this idea that no matter WHAT you do, you're still going to heaven.

You would have to toss out or dance around huge amounts of scripture to make it all seem plausible and truly I cant see how you could do this and still have a good conscience.

But Im sure you DO have a good conscience, at least I would hope so, but MAN you would have to do some real tossing out of the scriptures to keep holding onto this position of yours.

I mean honestly you have to be willing to stand there and tell everybody that someone who blows up the World Trade Center that was a "Christian" and kills however many people, would still be in heaven even if he didnt repent of his sin.

You would have to say someone who blows up an elementary school with 2,000 kids in it and didnt repent is going to be in heaven.


are you REALLY prepared to claim this?

Claudia

 

[tragic_pizza]

I'm not prepared to decide who goes to Hell and who doesn't. That isn't my job.

 

[rbell]

And until you confess that you are lying about what His Word says, I am afraid you may visit Ol Charlie one day and he will tell you just what he believes.

How dare I question your salvation?

Questioning another poster's salvation shows no class and I believe violates the rules here.

You owe DeeJay an apology...

but being as I've never seen anything remotely resembling a retraction, apology, or the like from you, we'll all refrain from holding our breath.

But you might want to confess this sin so you won't go to hell.:saint:

Oh wait...I forgot...you haven't answered it...

If you were to die with one unconfessed sin, would you go to hell?
(take #10)

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I believe we are preserved until the end... the Holy Spirit seals us until the day of redemption. He seals us with Christ's righteousness, not our own.

I would also say "perservere" as long as that doesn't mean complete perfection...
But the way I have been understanding you all is that you have to be completely perfect by the time you die, or you will not go to Heaven... and that is impossible.

My only "perfection" is Jesus.

I can understand you, Claudia, not believing a suicide goes to Heaven, you don't believe in OSAS....
But SFIC contradicts himself. He has said he believes in OSAS
He says... Joe gets saved, he is always saved, unless he commits a sin, then dies, then he is not saved.
That is not OSAS... that is still conditional upon what the person does.
That is works...
According to SFIC's logic, Jesus may know Joe, but at Judgement, Jesus can say "depart, I NEVER knew you"
Which would make Jesus a liar.
IF JESUS KNOWS YOU TODAY AS HIS CHILD, HE WILL ALWAYS KNOW YOU.
If at anytime in the future He tells you He doesn't know you He would be lying.
Do you know Jesus? Do you have a relationship with Jesus? If so, rest assured that you will go to Heaven.

If you didn't do anything to get saved, you can't do anything to stay saved, and you can't do anything to get unsaved.

Christ does it all...

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying a Christian WILL NOT commit suicide.

If he or she commits suicide, the suicide CANNOT have been a Christian... Joe, Sally, or any other name.

 

[rbell]

Hey, I've discovered a new witnessing technique some of ya'll should consider:

Witnesser: "If you died today, and were standing before God, and He asked you, 'Why should I let you into my kingdom?' What would you say?"
Right answer: "I would say, 'Lord, I had absolutely no unconfessed sin in my life. And I didn't drink or commit suicide."
God: "Well, come on in!"

Methinks we've gotten a bit backwards here, theologically speaking...

 

[tragic_pizza]

No, that is not what I am saying at all. I am saying a Christian WILL NOT commit suicide.

If he or she commits suicide, the suicide CANNOT have been a Christian... Joe, Sally, or any other name.

I am happy to note that you are not God, thus have no control over anyone else's eternal home.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You know, God knows us from beginning to end. He knows every sin we are going to commit before we even commit.and that many will ultimately reject Him.

But you guys don't believe that. You do not believe that that person who, just because they made a profession of faith many years before, even though the attended church, even though they gave to missions; that their true nature can be uncovered one day as the Word of God says 'the thing that is hid bringeth he forth to light.'

OSAS? I sure do beleve in OSAS. I preach it, and believe it wholeheartedly. As I have said in times past, many who claimed to be saved, many that you may know and love dearly who you believe to be saved may hear those words, 'Depart from me, ye that do work iniquity; I never knew you.'

So, you just go ahead and deny God's Word. Tell ya what, if you are so positive that a suicide will make it to heaven, why not be an example to that one contemplate suicide. Prove to him your theory. But, if you commit suicide to prove a suicide will go to heaven, you will be deceiving yourself.

We are to strengthen the weak. Yet there is no strengthening of the weak coming from you. You are assuring that one who wants to commit suicide that his sin will take him to heaven when the Bible says 'A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.'

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If you didn't do anything to get saved, you can't do anything to stay saved, and you can't do anything to get unsaved.

Christ does it all... by Tim

You are RIGHT! These people have a very small concept of God.

I'm disappointed in standing, I thought he was a Baptist. A Baptist never gives any credence to a person getting away with sin! Sin always carries a price tag, Moses, Noah, Lot, David, for examples. Standing doesn't even believe Noah is in Heaven even though he is mentioned in Faiths hall of fame. However, Paul said that when a person receives Christ by Grace through Faith and repenting of their sin of unbelief THEY ARE SAVED! Saved NOW and fOREVER. I'm soooo glad I don't have to sit on my hands and be so wired up making sure I don't break the speed limit or something to send me to hell if I'm not confessed up! Or, I'm sure glad I'm not waiting for some goat to take my sins somewhere so I can be finally saved and Christ can say NOW, FINALLY WHAT I STARTED IS REALLY FINISHED!
Wouldn't you be afraid that the sometime in the space of eternity the goat might just come back? After this bunch of cooks don't believe in hell. What would happen to Salvation then? YOU TALK ABOUT A RIDICULOUS DOCTRINE:laugh:

Shiloh, I did not know you were a Hylesite. Hyles believes all one has to do is repent of unbelief and turn to belief in God. No wonder you do not believe a suicide will go to hell.

 

[Claudia_T]

Hey, I've discovered a new witnessing technique some of ya'll should consider:

Witnesser: "If you died today, and were standing before God, and He asked you, 'Why should I let you into my kingdom?' What would you say?"
Right answer: "I would say, 'Lord, I had absolutely no unconfessed sin in my life. And I didn't drink or commit suicide."
God: "Well, come on in!"

Methinks we've gotten a bit backwards here, theologically speaking...

well I dont know if thats backwards.. thats what the Bible says, doesnt it?

Rv:21:8: But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Not that I agree with every single part others are saying but basically doesnt the Bible say in effect that what you DO NOT DO does have something to do with your salvation? Just as well as what you DO DO? lol!

AND OF COURSE THE BIGGEST IS WE RELY ON THE BLOOD OF THE CRUCIFIED AND RISEN SAVIOUR...

but that DOESNT NEGATE THE FACT THAT WHAT WE DR DONT DO does have something to do with whether or not we are allowed into heaven right?