Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

[Amy.G]

Amy


I fully realize that and I truly cant see why anyone would get any different view out of what I have said.


Claudia

Because you said this:

What you have to do: Good Works

Why you do good works: Because you love God

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God

What you must trust in alone: The atoning Blood of Christ

These are ALL in the Bible and it isnt an either/or situation. You dont choose which of these you like and toss out the rest. These are not optional, NONE of them.

 

[DeeJay]

repentence has to do with choosing to be sorry that you have not loved God or your neighbor and deciding you want to start

Repentence is metanoya it means change of mind. It has less to do with being sorry then changing your mind about something. When you change your mind about who can save you and decide that it is Jesus, you are saved.

Then the Holy Spirit indwells us convicting us of sin. The HS changes our mind about how we think about sin after we are already saved.

The idea that repentence is listing every wrong thing, feeling sorry and asking for forgiveness is wrong.

 

[tinytim]

Repentence is metanoya it means change of mind. It has less to do with being sorry then changing your mind about something. When you change your mind about who can save you and decide that it is Jesus, you are saved.

Then the Holy Spirit indwells us convicting us of sin. The HS changes our mind about how we think about sin after we are already saved.

The idea that repentence is listing every wrong thing, feeling sorry and asking for forgiveness is wrong.

Exactly...
And although, I am not a Calvinist, these verses apply.
Claudia, how can you have been chosen before the foundation of the world, if it depends on your works?

It is his pleasure to save, not dependant upon you.

Ephesians 1:4-7 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Re-posting my example:
Joe is a Christian man in his forties. He asked Jesus into his heart at age fifteeen. He has been baptized, teaches Sunday School, and witnesses to his neighbors. He spends time with God each morning. On this day, he is in his car. Just then, his cell phone rings. It's a business client he forgot to call that day. The client says, "Joe, I called you earlier and was waiting on your call." The Christian says, "Oh, I was just about to give you a call." (a lie)

He is distracted by the phone call, and does not see the light turn red. He plows into a dump truck and is killed instantly.

Is Joe in hell? He's a liar, after all...

The true nature of the tree revealed itself.

 

[Claudia_T]

Because you said this:

What you have to do: Good Works

Why you do good works: Because you love God

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God

What you must trust in alone: The atoning Blood of Christ

These are ALL in the Bible and it isnt an either/or situation. You dont choose which of these you like and toss out the rest. These are not optional, NONE of them.

okay well what you said to me was this:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


...as if I didnt believe that, but I DO.

Just the same way the Bible itself says that and it also says the things it says about WORKS.

The faith is not of ourselvs= I believe that, faith is the gift of God
not of works are we saved= I believe that

I just went through that in a post above...
__________________

 

[Ed Edwards]

StandingfirminChrist: //Are you denying the clear Word of God that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God? //

Please post the scripture each time you mention "no drunkard
will inherit the Kingdom of God".

Again, please don't assume that just cause someone else
has a slightly different understanding of a scripture than
you have, that you are dead wrong.

Somewhere around I have a pre-prepared writing about the
three Kingdoms of God (God is a Triune God and can
have a Triune Kingdom, if He wants to). Which of the
three Kingdoms of God is the person who dies drunk
not going to inherit? What about the alcoholic who has
been saved for 40 years from his habit of being drunken -
which Kingdom is he not going to inherit?

 

[Claudia_T]

Exactly...
And although, I am not a Calvinist, these verses apply.
Claudia, how can you have been chosen before the foundation of the world, if it depends on your works?

It is his pleasure to save, not dependant upon you.

Ephesians 1:4-7 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: (5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, (6) To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

well He didnt choose us to be sinning likethe heathen, He chose us for this:
Ephesians 1:4-7 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love


Rom:8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[DeeJay]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbell
Re-posting my example:
Joe is a Christian man in his forties. He asked Jesus into his heart at age fifteeen. He has been baptized, teaches Sunday School, and witnesses to his neighbors. He spends time with God each morning. On this day, he is in his car. Just then, his cell phone rings. It's a business client he forgot to call that day. The client says, "Joe, I called you earlier and was waiting on your call." The Christian says, "Oh, I was just about to give you a call." (a lie)

He is distracted by the phone call, and does not see the light turn red. He plows into a dump truck and is killed instantly.

Is Joe in hell? He's a liar, after all...

The true nature of the tree revealed itself.

SFiC

You can not honestly believe that this man is unsaved becasue of this. If so I am speechless. You have a lot of judgement for somebody who has been given so much grace.

 

[pinoybaptist]

This was in AmyG's post, but I don't know if she was the original poster of these words:

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God

An example, please, of how good works is done through faith and the power of God.

Thank you.

 

[Ed Edwards]

From about 288AD to 306AD there was no clear emperior
of the Roman Empire. Sometimes there were up to six
emperors ruling part of the Empire. Finally Constatine
won. Some of the claiment Emperors let their followers
persecute Christians. So it wasn't really a religious persecution
but a political persecution.

Some of the meaner persecuters of Christians would
interview someone (under torture, of course). Some
would Lapsi (deny Christ is Lord). The meanies would
say something like "Well, you hang out with Christians,
you can die with Christians" and be thrown to the
wild beasts.

Alright, a person does all of Romans 10:9 right.
Under torture they deny Christ is their Lord (i.e. Lapsi).
Then they get martyred (basically killed, you know).
Have they been faithful to the death?
Have they done been lost & go to eternal hell fire?
Sorry, if you think they go to hell then your god is an ol'
meanie
The God who created the universe, the God who sent
His only begotten son to die for your sins is going to
burn you in eternal hell fire cause you had a temporary
lapse under torture*.

* BTW, some people don't understand torture. If it was
good for you they would call it 'Sunday School picnic'
not 'torture'. My studies (one of those five each 1/2 of a Master's
Degree that I have) on torture indicate that 999,990 of each
million people bow to the dictates of the torturer, 9 have
enough control over their body to kill themselves (can you
spell SUICIDE?), 1 out of a million will not submit.
God don't grade on the curve. Jesus saves - not we ourselves
lest any person should bost.

 

[DQuixote]

My, my, my children. Eric B got it right in another thread:

All "murderers" (by YOUR definition) are NOT going to the lake of fire, because many have had their murders covered by the blood of Christ. Does that nullify the scripture? No, that scriptures is for those NOT covered! Those not covered are then judged as "murderers".

Those in the category of liar, thief, murderer, who remain so, never having accepted Christ's sacrifice, are doomed. They remain in that category because their sin / sins are not forgiven! Those who have received Christ as Savior are not doomed. After one is saved by confessing the Lord Jesus, after one is sealed by the Holy Spirit, one cannot possibly be scheduled for Hell. One's name is written in the Book of Life at the very moment, the very split-second of having believed, immersed at that point in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the born-again experience, that all-inclusive experience that determines the confessor's fate for eternity. Why, why, why would a Christian argue against salvation by grace through faith, the gift of God? How, how, how can you add something to His marvelous gift? Those who endure to the end ARE those who have experienced the new birth. Their endurance is not predicated upon their own effort, but upon HIS sacrifice! The scripture is clear! Why, why, why do some Christians muddy the waters so gleefully? You insult your Most High God, you grieve the Holy Spirit, when you grab hold of such heresy and race to share it with others. So sad. So sad. The answer: You have not studied in the spirit. You have ignored the spiritual truths set forth, as in 1 Corinthians 2:1-16. There are other references. But you have leaned to your own understanding, rejecting the counsel of the Holy Spirit. You've done it your way (no apology to Frank Sinatra). The result? Confusion. Confusion among believers of every type: old, new, struggling, and confusion among those who seek Him. You turn a Christian website into a trash dump of heretical mumbling. But I'm not your judge, as Amy points out. I evaluate doctrinal error, spiritually, prayerfully, calling upon the wisdom of Christ, not myself. Suffice it to say that at the Judgment Seat of Christ there'll be one list of rewards the confusers could have received, and another list of those you actually receive, the second decidedly shorter than the first.

 

[Claudia_T]

This was in AmyG's post, but I don't know if she was the original poster of these words:



An example, please, of how good works is done through faith and the power of God.

Thank you.

No that was my original statement... hold on and I will send you a post

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.
The Word of God does not show you what is in man's heart.
You do not know what is in Charlie's heart, only God does--so stop the playing God and stop the personal attacks or they will be documented and taken to the administrative council. Attacking another members salvation is against the rules.

"The heart is deceiful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9)
--The answer to that question is not you.

Jesus said 'Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.' He also said that we would know the tree by its fruit.

We can know the heart, for it surfaces to the outside. Charlie's heart was sinful, as are many on this board.

Candy coating sin is not an option amongst the Body of Christ.

 

[Gershom]

So, you just go ahead and deny God's Word. Tell ya what, if you are so positive that a suicide will make it to heaven, why not be an example to that one contemplate suicide. Prove to him your theory. But, if you commit suicide to prove a suicide will go to heaven, you will be deceiving yourself.

We are to strengthen the weak. Yet there is no strengthening of the weak coming from you. You are assuring that one who wants to commit suicide that his sin will take him to heaven when the Bible says 'A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit.'

You continually post that those who disagree with you "deny God's Word." Knock it off. You're obviously an old man and should be mature enough to understand that there are those who interpret the issue of suicide differently than you. It would be just as easy for me or anyone else to accuse you of denying God's Word. It's just that you don't understand it the way others do.

So don't pretend to be on God's side while the rest of us are busy denying Him. Please.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
SFiC
You can not honestly believe that this man (the living
saint, the dying liar) is unsaved
becasue of this. If so I am speechless. You have a lot
of judgement for somebody who has been given so much grace.

Amen, Sister DeeJay -- You are so right on. :thumbs:

I say as a Christian Male and Christian Elder:

You can not honestly believe that this man {the living
saint, the dying liar} is unsaved
because of this. If so I am speechless. You have a lot
of judgement for somebody who has been given so much grace.

 

[DHK]

Jesus said 'Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaketh.' He also said that we would know the tree by its fruit.

We can know the heart, for it surfaces to the outside. Charlie's heart was sinful, as are many on this board.

Candy coating sin is not an option amongst the Body of Christ.

You shall know them by their fruits. Jesus was speaking of false prophets. The fruit was doctrine, not lifestyle. The context tells us that we can be fruit inspectors not judges of hearts. We are to judge doctrine. We cannot know the heart of man; only God knows the heart of man. Jer.17:9 is very clear on that. The heart is deceptive; you don't know what is in the heart of man.

Jesus did say out of the abundance of the heart man speaks. In quoting that statement you condemn yourself on the road to hell. Everything you post on this board is not edifying to the readers. If you at any time post something in anger, something that is not truthful, some false accusation, etc. and then have a sudden heart attack--by your own words you would condemn yourself to Hell.
Jesus did say:
"Every idle word that a man shall speak he shall so give account of;
For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Mat.12:36,37)

Be careful what you say. I do not say you will lose your salvation; but you seem to say that a person will.

 

[Claudia_T]

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinoybaptist
This was in AmyG's post, but I don't know if she was the original poster of these words:



An example, please, of how good works is done through faith and the power of God.

Thank you.

-------------------------------




The Bible tells us that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us...

Phil:4:13: I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.


By faith we must take hold of His power to overcome sin.

in 2Peter it talks about how "the elect" are to DO certain things to be "partakers of the divine nature" of Christ. To "make your calling and election sure" and that you will be granted an entrance into heaven...


Right IN the passage it tells us how, it is by grasping ahold of the promises of God (see verse 4):


2Pt:
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


There are MANY Bible promises about overcoming sin, about God's power, and so on... you just have to grasp ahold of those promises through faith.

Believing that Jesus is working IN you through His Holy Spirit... when temptation comes... and actually all day long...


It is hard to put it into words... but it is actually God working IN you...

and if you spend time each day beholding God by studying His Scriptures in order to get a more clear picture of Him... you will come to KNOW HIM more and more and thus you will trust Him. If you trust God then you will believe His promises.


Claudia

 

[standingfirminChrist]

You continually post that those who disagree with you "deny God's Word." Knock it off. You're obviously an old man and should be mature enough to understand that there are those who interpret the issue of suicide differently than you. It would be just as easy for me or anyone else to accuse you of denying God's Word. It's just that you don't understand it the way others do.

So don't pretend to be on God's side while the rest of us are busy denying Him. Please.

Since others deny that all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, and that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God (btw, Ed, is says the Kingdom, not a Kingdom. There is only one Kingdom of God.), that means I am supposed to deny the Word too?

Sorry, I cannot do that.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

From about 288AD to 306AD there was no clear emperior
of the Roman Empire. Sometimes there were up to six
emperors ruling part of the Empire. Finally Constatine
won. Some of the claiment Emperors let their followers
persecute Christians. So it wasn't really a religious persecution
but a political persecution.

Some of the meaner persecuters of Christians would
interview someone (under torture, of course). Some
would Lapsi (deny Christ is Lord). The meanies would
say something like "Well, you hang out with Christians,
you can die with Christians" and be thrown to the
wild beasts.

Alright, a person does all of Romans 10:9 right.
Under torture they deny Christ is their Lord (i.e. Lapsi).
Then they get martyred (basically killed, you know).
Have they been faithful to the death?
Have they done been lost & go to eternal hell fire?
Sorry, if you think they go to hell then your god is an ol'
meanie
The God who created the universe, the God who sent
His only begotten son to die for your sins is going to
burn you in eternal hell fire cause you had a temporary
lapse under torture*.

* BTW, some people don't understand torture. If it was
good for you they would call it 'Sunday School picnic'
not 'torture'. My studies (one of those five each 1/2 of a Master's
Degree that I have) on torture indicate that 999,990 of each
million people bow to the dictates of the torturer, 9 have
enough control over their body to kill themselves (can you
spell SUICIDE?), 1 out of a million will not submit.
God don't grade on the curve. Jesus saves - not we ourselves
lest any person should bost.

God doesn't grade on the curve? According to my Bible few find that narrow path.

 

[DHK]

Since others deny that all murderers will have their part in the lake of fire, and that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God (btw, Ed, is says the Kingdom, not a Kingdom. There is only one Kingdom of God.), that means I am supposed to deny the Word too?

Sorry, I cannot do that.

Answer my above post SFIC.
In the light of James 2:10
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Lying is just as bad as being a drunkard or being a murderer. If you have broken one law you have broken them all, or as just as guily of breaking them all. Sin is sin in God's sight. Check 1John 3:4 and Gal.3:10.
God does not discriminate agaisnt sin. One sin is enough to condemn a person to hell no matter what sin it is. Rev.21:8 says the same thing about liars as it does about drunkards and murderers.

If God should judge you according to the way that you have posted some of the things that have had to be edited from some of your posts would you not also be condemned to Hell?