Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

[tinytim]

But that is not the word used in Revelation....

 

[Claudia_T]

Now see what I mean? This really doesnt have anything to do with suicide.

Its that if you use suicide and take the most extreme case of it then it makes us look heartless and cold and etc..

Because the fact is, just as I said, if you asked if they mudered 400 kids at an elementary school right before they died and didnt repent they would say they would STILL go to heaven...
thats what its all about...

But if you take the most extreme case of suicide and use that it just makes our side look bad, thats all.


Claudia

 

[standingfirminChrist]

and you know this becasue?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

murder is murder... whether suicide, homocide, infanticide, genocide, or whatever you want to call it.

A shoe is a shoe is a shoe

 

[tinytim]

Here is a question that may show some light on this thread...

Are we forgiven because we confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness?

Or are we forgiven because we believe Jesus and trust in his atoning blood?
If we are only forgiven a sin because we ask for forgiveness what happens if we sin but die before we get to confess the sin to God and ask for forgiveness?

So are we forgiven through the atoning blood of Jesus or through our actions of asking forgiveness?

And don't try to cop out and say that a true Christian doesn't sin...
Because that is a lie, and therefore is also a sin.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

All suicide is intentional. There is no such thing as accidental suicide. Accidental death, yes... but no accidental suicide.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source su·i·cide (sōō'ĭ-sīd') Pronunciation Key

n.

1. The act or an instance of intentionally killing oneself.
2. The destruction or ruin of one's own interests: It is professional suicide to involve oneself in illegal practices.
3. One who commits suicide.

 

[Shiloh]

Standing, I see you are still kicking this dead horse. I have been sitting on the side thinking of your argument of a murderer losing their salvation.

There is no one on this board that preaches repentance more then me. However I am not depending upon my repentance to take me to Heaven. I didn't get saved by just repentance, I am Saved through Christ. Repentance is just an element of the Salvation process like faith and believeing and confession.

Your argument is that if a person is a Christian God will keep them from taking their own life. You say that if a person takes their own life they are a murderer and the Bible says no murderers will enter Heaven. Reason given is they have no time to repent. Brother, so doing you are making repentance a work!

Question for you: In Gen. 9 we read about Noah and that he got drunk. Is that a sin in your eyes? Did Noah repent of his drunkedness? Where? Do you believe Noah went to Heaven?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

That person has taken his eyes off of God and put his eyes and mind on self. Getting out of their miseries.

They have not kept His Word as He said. Jesus said if they know me they will keep my word.

Have they kept His Word? NO. They have murdered. They have destroyed the body that is not theirs to destroy.

 

[Shiloh]

Standing, is that a reply to my post? Are you saying you believe Noah went to hell?

 

[tinytim]

That person has taken his eyes off of God and put his eyes and mind on self. Getting out of their miseries.

They have not kept His Word as He said. Jesus said if they know me they will keep my word.

Have they kept His Word? NO. They have murdered. They have destroyed the body that is not theirs to destroy.

The basis to a works based salvation..

SFIC, , either you are saved by what Christ did period...
or you are not.

If you depend on you keeping your eyes on Christ, you will go to Hell.

We go to Heaven not based on repentance, but based on what Christ did.
Shiloh is right.

 

[Amy.G]

Here is a question that may show some light on this thread...

Are we forgiven because we confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness?

Or are we forgiven because we believe Jesus and trust in his atoning blood?
If we are only forgiven a sin because we ask for forgiveness what happens if we sin but die before we get to confess the sin to God and ask for forgiveness?

So are we forgiven through the atoning blood of Jesus or through our actions of asking forgiveness?

And don't try to cop out and say that a true Christian doesn't sin...
Because that is a lie, and therefore is also a sin.

Tim, you probably will not get an answer to this question. It has been asked repeatedly with no response. The truth is, we will all die with unconfessed sin. There will always be that one thing, that one thought, the gets left unconfessed. I believe Christ has already payed for all my sins. Even the ones I have forgotten about. Unless you are a suicide bomber, I believe most suicides result from a mental disorder. God is the judge in those matters and looks at the heart and the mental stability, areas that I am not qualified to assess. :saint:

 

[Shiloh]

Standing it would seem that this verse Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith would take the wind out of your sails.

There have been a number of people here trying to tell you that a Christian though a child of God is still capable of sinning. We can and will sin until we are changed and get our glorfied bodies.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Shiloh,

I notice you did not highlight the 'by faith' there.

Righteousness by faith is totally different than just righteousness.

Many walk around in their own righteousness.

Those who placed their faith in an object to end their life were not showing a faith in Christ. Their righteousness was filthy rags.

I know what you have been trying to tell me. That God will allow murderers in heaven.

 

[Eric B]

When you come out of the grave at the second coming of Christ, if you had been in rebellion against God when you went INTO the grave you surely are not going to suddenly be loyal to Him. No "magical" changes at the Resurrection.

Thats really what people here are saying, that at the Resurrection those who were wicked and claiming to be Christians are going to experience some sort of "magical transformation" and turn into true Christians all of a sudden against their will.

Well that is false. However you went down into the grave, that's how you're coming up out of it... either loyal to God or in rebellion to His Laws. And God isnt going to allow rebels in Heaven to start the rebellion up again. If you're going to hold on to sin, you are going to be going down with it, along with Satan and his evil Angels, into the Lake of Fire. And that is because you love sin more than you love God, shown by your refusal to let it go.

Aren't we changed at the Second Coming/Resurrection? If "however we go in is how we will come out", then we will still be as prone to sin as we are now! Now, that isn't true is it? Again, everyone would be lost, if that were true.
Again, while our behavior will be changed (perfected), what doesn't change when you go down and come up is what is counted to you: Either sin, or Christ's righteousness. But what you're talking about is behavior. You have completely eliminated spiritual birth from the equation, and are focusing only on work!

Also, I just want to say that I dont know much about Once Saved Always Saved and Perserverance and all the technical terms.

But I do know that it seems as though you guys really dont believe God will keep you and cause you to perservere till the end, because you believe you can be IN REBELLION against God in the end. I think you just invented something that sounds good on the outside but is used to cover up sin and rebellion on the inside.

Wait a minute! WE don't believe God will keep us? That is what we have been arguing, against works-salvation/righteousness! You twist our belief into "it's OK to rebell"; but nobody here has testified to that. IT is your own distortion of what we teach.
But question; just what does God "keeping us" and "causing us to persevere" mean to you, when you elsehwere say it is all "choices" we make?

And I think that you are trying to use all of these EXTREME situations like suicide in different situations to try to play upon people's emotions, which is NOT good.

Just like you keep mentioning someone blowing up an Elementary School and killing 400 people as an emotive argument to try to sway us that such can (should) not be saved.
This is a hard lesson the victims of the Son of Sam may have to learn. He supposedly received Christ in prison, and I don't know if it is true (though it does seem somewhat genuine; though you can never know for sure) but all the victims' survivors deny this, saying "how can such a monster ever be forgiven? He can NEVER change, and should just rot!" Look at what he did!" Underlying this, of course, is "I would never do anything liek that". But such people do not understand God's grace or man's sin (including their own). While they certainly have reason to hate him, nobody has any right to say that even God cannot forgive someone.

All you are doing in reality is lulling people to sleep in their sins and causing them to really rest secure in their rebellion against God. Intead od watching and waiting and having their lamps trimmed and burning, awaiting the return of their Lord, be it at the second coming or at death and the resurrection.

Claudia

Why would we do that? Who are all of these people in "rebellion" that we are telling they are OK? I'm sure if any of us here see someone in rebellion in our Churches (including suicide threats), we would reprove them. Again, you are twisting our beliefs. Refusing to try to scare them into obedience with Hell (and their salvation unscripturally voided) does not equate condoning all their behavior!

 

[Shiloh]

standing, I know what you have been trying to tell me. That God will allow murderers in heaven.

You know standing that's the beauty of our Salvation. Yes, God will allow murderers into Heaven. He will allow bank robbers in and drunkerds and homosexuals and SDA's and even baptists. If we have repented of our sin of unbelief and trusted in the shed Blood of Christ by Faith we are saved. Every day we must seek forgiveness for thoughts and deeds that we do that grieves the Holy Spirit of God. There is coming a day however that we will be changed and be like Christ.

 

[Eric B]

Righteousness by faith is totally different than just righteousness.

Many walk around in their own righteousness.

Those who placed their faith in an object to end their life were not showing a faith in Christ. Their righteousness was filthy rags.

Again, you are getting it all mixed up. "Ending misery" or "ending their life" is not the object of faith, so you cannot accuse someone of "walking around in their own righteounsness" because they end their life. Somebody who thinks they will go to heaven because they refrained from ending their life (or any other sin), or don't sin as much, or repented after every sin, is the one who more closely fits that description!

 

[Shiloh]

by standing I notice you did not highlight the 'by faith' there.

Righteousness by faith is totally different than just righteousness.

Many walk around in their own righteousness.

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Contrary to what you believe standing there is no place in Scripture where Noah repented after he was drunk. To say he did would have to be implied. I am sure he did, however God doesn't seem to deem it necessary to show us he needed to do that to get to Heaven. It's interesting to note there were three chapters about him before he was drunken and only three verses after.
If a Christian takes their own life they will stand before a Holy God and give an account for it but they WILL BE THERE.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Colossians 1:22-23 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

According to your reasoning, Paul did not mean we are to be grounded and settled. Nor did he mean we are to continue in the faith. Nor did he mean could not give up hope.

One who commits suicide is not grounded and rooted in the faith. On the contrary, His faith in Christ has proven to be false. He has not hope, he has no root.

We cannot be like Him as is written 'when He shall appear we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is', and if we are not grounded and settled, continuing in Him.

We cannot be said to have been grounded, settled, holding fast to hope and commit suicide.

Sorry guys, you are advocating false doctrine when you say that one who commits suicide will go to heaven. That one did not continue in Him. That one revealed what manner of tree he was.

 

[tinytim]

Actually, the one that thinks that they will go to Heaven because they don't sin, will wake up in Hell.

And SFIC you are advocating a false doctrine of works.