Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

[JonC]

• Does a Christian who commits Suicide automatically
  go to hell?
  
  

I don’t think they automatically go to Hell. We can not determine the state of mind of the person, or their spiritual faith, who commits suicide. As far as martyrdom, I don’t think it’s suicide.


2. Can a Christian who becomes a Lapsi really go to heaven?

This is a hard one to answer. I believe that once you receive salvation you are saved. As far as a Christian who denounces his/her faith in Christ, I question whether that person had actually received salvation through Christ. Once you receive salvation, you become a new creature, and die to your old self. That old self can not be resurrected.

If it is possible to loose your salvation, I don’t think it would be possible to regain it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 "4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

 

[Shiloh]

by rbell, No doubt that if someone commits suicide, there was something seriously wrong--emotionally, maybe physically, chemically, and spiritually.

But it's not our call to make...mis-application of a passage aside. It's God's.

I do not deny there has been a lot of people that have taken their own life that have gone to hell. However a Christian can not go to hell no matter what they do! Folks just because a person by faith receives Christ doesn't mean they are above sin. I bet Paul would have had a time with you "works" people when he said in ICor.3 to the people that he can't speak to them as spiritual (saved) but as carnal (worldly or unsaved). Yet he called them "brethern" and said they were "labourers together" and said they were "God"s husbandry."
You people are hung up on a few verses you have taken out of context you can't see the Grace and Mercy of God. To say that after David committed adultry he would have gone to hell if he died or after he had a man killed the same thing, is preaching a false doctrine that is not Baptist!
To say a person that takes their own life does it with malice and hatred for a body that belongs to God is false. I have counciled with many people that have been in a very depressed condition due to things rbell stated and they were not thinking period! They were not being rational about anything. The last thing on their mind was "I'm being a rebel." I am sure it's God that's keeping the record and not some of the nuts on this board!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I do not deny there has been a lot of people that have taken their own life that have gone to hell. However a Christian can not go to hell no matter what they do!

Since the word Christian means 'Christ-like' or 'Christ-follower', I would say no Christian would commit suicide. As committing suicide is not Christ-like in any way, shape, or form; nor is it following Christ.

 

[rbell]

Since the word Christian means 'Christ-like' or 'Christ-follower', I would say no Christian would commit suicide. As committing suicide is not Christ-like in any way, shape, or form; nor is it following Christ.

neither is lying. Do they go to hell too? They're also mentioned in the Revelation passage...

 

[Amy.G]

Since the word Christian means 'Christ-like' or 'Christ-follower', I would say no Christian would commit suicide. As committing suicide is not Christ-like in any way, shape, or form; nor is it following Christ.

In other words, no Christian would commit a sin. Do you sin SFIC?

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

If one claiming to be Christian commits sin and never feels conviction for that sin, and don't repent of that sin , then that one better check the path he or she is walking on.

God will chastise those who are His. If you don't feel the chastening hand of God when you sin, hten the Bible says you are illegitimate and not sons.

If you tell people they can sin and still go to heaven, you are just as guilty as the one following your advice.

 

[Eric B]

That would mean that either you have committed sins and ignored the conviction (perhaps repenting after, but nevertheless ignoring it while in the act, and most of ouur sins are this way), OR, that you just don;t sin anymore, and this is what determines you are saved.

Suicide is most often a rash act that someone will ignore the conviction and do, and then they can't undo it. But that doesn't mean the conviction was not there.

We do not encourage people to sin because they will still go to Heaven, but then we do not change the Gospel and deny that sin is forgiven, just to scare people into doing good, because then we are saying that nobody can be saved.

 

[Claudia_T]

Its pretty unbelievable that a Christian would actually believe that no matter WHAT they do, they wont go to Hell.

But I guess this is what this type of teaching does to people.

**sigh**

 

[Claudia_T]

This was my point ALL along that you and SFIC continued to argue about. I'm glad you finally see that we do not know what's in a person's heart and have zero right to judge.

well its not like I finally see that, I knew that all along, I just think those on the other side are too far to the left as well and give encouragement to sin. Like someone saying on here that NO MATTER WHAT a Christian does, they arent going to Hell, for instance.

 

[Claudia_T]

Can you just imagine some "Christian" going into an elementary school and blowing the whole place up, killing hundreds of people and themselves, and then having everyone at their church next sunday saying "Oh Joe is up there in heaven now!"

I mean, SERIOUSLY?


thats what Im saying, I think people are going to extremes on BOTH sides of this, really. You've gotta have some common sense in there somewhere.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

A person may feel conviction for suicidal thoughts, but I too have counselled with such. Remember, my ex-wife tried to commit suicide before we met. She shot herself in the right temple.

After our divorce she has tried to commit suicide at least 4 times by overdose.

I have counselled with her after 3 of those times. She claims to be Christian, and says she felt conviction, but I do not believe it was Godly conviction, for her thoughts were how she would hurt her family, her friends. She said she did not want to hurt them. But she continued in that attempt.

When the Spirit convicts, as in God's call to Salvation, one has two choices, one can hear the Spirit and accept and answer the call, or hear and reject that call.

The same does no apply to those who are contemplating suicide. If the Spirit does convict, which I believe it will, they will hear and respond in a positive manner. Why? Because His children hear His voice and follow Him. The Spirit would bring such a conviction that they would realize that Christ is the way of escape from those suicidal thoughts.

 

[Claudia_T]

Like if a Saddam Hussein type guy gassed thousands of people and he was a Christian, you are telling me he will be in heaven?

 

[Claudia_T]

well anyway Im going to go for now but I think most of you need to go a little less to the extreme on your positions and you'd all be a little closer to the truth then.

Just my opinion.

 

[Claudia_T]

But you know, this, now that I think about it, is what people do who view God as being so RIGID in everything...

They go and they view God as just winding everything right up to its extremes when it comes to the law, then they go "Oh well its impossible for me to keep the Law since God is sooooooooooooo legalistic"

"so my solution is... I cant keep the Law!" and they of course wind up saying that no matter WHAT a Christian does, he is still going to heaven. (You would HAVE to come to that inevitable conclusion) and their "Christianity" ends up merely a cover-up, a cloak, for sins of the darkest hue.

THIS IS how people do.... and its because they view things in such an unreasonable EXTREME way.

and what I keep on trying to get people to see is that WE (Seventh Day Adventists) are NOT the ones who are Legalistic.. YOU ARE! Seriously!

 

[Eric B]

You have just twisted nonSDA evangelical beliefs into a single mixed up ball, to try to prove we are just wrong on both sides of the issue.

1) We believe that nobody can keep the Law perfectly, BECAUSE of the fact that man is a sinner, and
2) The Law given to Moses was abolished, because it was given to Israel ultimately to show them their sin, and pave the way for the Gospel. Universal moral/spiritual laws continue, however.
3) Since a person is not saved by his keeping of the Law, then his sins are "not counted towards him" (2 Cor.5).

You have distorted this beyond recognition to your "1) God is too legalistic 2) I can't keep the Law, so all law is abolished, 3)Therefore I can do anything I want, and it is OK and I will still get to heaven"

Again, you are the one dealing in extremes, and it is tiring to constantly have our beliefs twisted into this concoction when we take so much time to lay it all out for you.

If you think you will be in Heaven because of all the sins you didn't comit (or caught through remembrance and a prayer of "repentance" just in time), then since you will admit you do still sin, where is the line between salvation and loss of salvation then? It would be easiest just to have salvation instantly lost and restored for each sin and "repentance" prayer, but then salvation is by works then any way you cut it. So you are still the true legalist, even aside from the "Is the OT Law is still in effect?" issue!

 

[Ed Edwards]

StandingfirminChrist: //
Question, is the lapsi going back before men and confessing Christ? or is he committing suicide because he is remorseful for denying Christ?//

Yes. Lapsi of both sorts happened.

Also, in many persecutions people were killed for
political reasons, not 'in the name of Christ'.
In fact, the largest Killing 'in the name of Christ'
was the six million Jews killed in 1943-1945.
I note my Dad died of wounds received in Germany
taking out the Jew killers.

There are also cases where suspected Christians
(and some might have been Christians who
became Lapsi) were tortured and executed for
hanging out with Christians.

Suicide and Martyrdom are two opposites.

A martyr is one who is killed by another for a cause or stand the one takes.

A suicide takes his own life

You pretty much totally missed what I was saying.
A saved person or a lost person desiring to commit
suicide AND LOOK GOOD can go to Saudi Arabia,
start passing out Bibles, refuse to contact the US embassy,
and die a Christian martyr. IMHO the saved person
would go to heaven, the unsaved person would go to Hell.
But IMHO = in my humble opinion, still means 'in my
humble opinion".

... I'm also frustrated that some (not many, but a couple)
try and paint others as "pro-suicide" or assert that
we don't think it's wrong...just because we don't believe
suicide, though sinful, sends one to hell on the "fast track."

Amen - rightly so Bro Rbell.
I can even think of a few places in the Bible that
support suicide. But I'm not blank-check pro-suicide. 'Righteous
Indignation' is way most frequently more indignation
than righteous.

 

[Eric B]

A person may feel conviction for suicidal thoughts, but I too have counselled with such. Remember, my ex-wife tried to commit suicide before we met. She shot herself in the right temple.

After our divorce she has tried to commit suicide at least 4 times by overdose.

I have counselled with her after 3 of those times. She claims to be Christian, and says she felt conviction, but I do not believe it was Godly conviction, for her thoughts were how she would hurt her family, her friends. She said she did not want to hurt them. But she continued in that attempt.

When the Spirit convicts, as in God's call to Salvation, one has two choices, one can hear the Spirit and accept and answer the call, or hear and reject that call.

The same does no apply to those who are contemplating suicide. If the Spirit does convict, which I believe it will, they will hear and respond in a positive manner. Why? Because His children hear His voice and follow Him. The Spirit would bring such a conviction that they would realize that Christ is the way of escape from those suicidal thoughts.

Again:
1) Either you still sin against conviction at times (and lived to be able to "repent" of it), or
2) You just don't sin anymore, because you always stop at the conviction.

Again, suicide is often a rash impulse, so you cannot say she must not have been truly convicted by God, just because she attempted it. (She didn't carry it out, so there must have been some sort of restraint). And funny, in yesterday's thread, not thinking of others besides yourself was supposed to be part of the soul-damning ["de-facto"] rejection of Christ, yet now, thinking of the family and stopping is being rejected as a valid part of godly conviction!

 

[Ed Edwards]

JonC:
If it is possible to loose your salvation, I don’t think it would be possible to regain it.

Hebrews 6:4-6 "4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame."

Interesting, that passage is clearly the most
OSAS (Once Jesus Saves you, you are Always Saved)
passage in the Bible. But I guess it does teach:
If it is possible to loose your salvation, then you can't
have your salvation restored.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Ed Edwards,

I cannot find one verse to support suicide. Unless you want to totally twist Scripture and say Jesus told Judas 'What thou does't, do quickly.' Jesus was not telling him to commit suicide. He was telling him that He knew his evil heart and the plan to betray Him... to get it over with.

There is no verse whatsoever to support suicide in the life of a believer unless that verse is found in a satanic bible.

 

[thjplgvp]

Jesus said, 'He that denieth me before men, him will I also deny before the Father.'

Seems cut and dried. Christ has to be true to His Word. No, a Lapsi will not go to heaven.

Well that settles it Peter is in hell. So much for eternal security.

thjplgvp