Poll: #2, Suicide & Lapsi

[Brother Bob]

." The Christian says, "Oh, I was just about to give you a call." (a lie)

Depends on what the Christian believes "just about" is. He was "just about" but not actually ready to make the call yet. It seems some go to such extremes to show some are sinning and dying with the sin. God knew the heart of the Christian and if he meant to deceive the other person. I have people all the time say "I was going to call you", but they didn't say when and neither did this Christian.

 

[Eric B]

you know what the problem is? it seems as if all of you have no real concept of what it means to do good works just plain because you love God!

You cannot conceive of that, and so you always have to try and make someone out to be doing it to somehow earn merit or to "work their way to heaven" ...

I dont know how many times or ways I can say that I dont believe in doing good works to earn your way to heaven, it cannot be done. it is impossible.

You're the one who does not understand the concept of doing good works just because you love God, when you try to make them conditions of salvation, and then accuse us of making sin OK just because we say works are not what determines salvation. We're the ones who have been saying the purpose of works are to love God, and all of you gloss over it, because then your works-salvation would fall on that point. Amazing how you co-opt our point while painting our position as something totally different.

Let me put it in an even simpler form and maybe people might get it...

What you have to do: Good Works

Why you do good works: Because you love God

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God

What you must trust in alone: The atoning Blood of Christ

These are ALL in the Bible and it isnt an either/or situation. You dont choose which of these you like and toss out the rest. These are not optional, NONE of them.

Yeah; Ed style! He'll get that alright!:laugh:

How's about:

What you have to do: Trust God

What you must trust Him for: Salvation (not positive attitudes in life)

By what are you saved: The atoning Blood of Christ

What is a fruit of salvation: Good Works

Why you do good works: Because you love God

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God through the Word of God and conviction

But if you reverse that the way you had it, then that raises the question of what we are really "trusting" in. So I had asked you earlier:
just what does God "keeping us" and "causing us to persevere" mean to you, when you elsehwere say it is all "choices" we make?
I'm sure this is supposed to be tied to "the power", but then it is the same question. If to you, it is all about our choices, then what exactly does god "do" for us in your view?

I ask, because this "do it by the power of God" if not properly understood can lead to perfectionism: God supernaturally grants you the power to be sinless, and if you aren't; you apparently "have a form of godliness but lack the power" because you are "not fully trusting Him". Whatever "sins" you commit are the "bad fruit" of this. There are people who believe this! It is basically the teaching of stopsinning.com, and basically what people have been implying here.

God could have done this, but then we are left with the following possibilities:

1) I do not sin anymore; if you all admit to sin, you are not saved
2) We all sin; so nobody is saved
3) God has not supernaturally made anyone sinless, so "his power" is being misunderstood

 

[Claudia_T]

That Eric is absolute nonsense.

I think maybe you dont even read the things I say. it has nothing to do with being "sinless".

I think you ought to just go take time to actually read the things Ive said.

 

[rbell]

Bro. Bob, I see what you're saying...my point is that we're forgiven and have a responsibility to live a holy life as redeemed followers of Christ. It is not about having sinless perfection at the moment of death.

The example isn't perfect, but it was the best I could do.

 

[Amy.G]

What you have to do: Good Works
Why you do good works: Because you love God

How you do good works: Through faith and by the power of God

What you must trust in alone: The atoning Blood of Christ

These are ALL in the Bible and it isnt an either/or situation. You dont choose which of these you like and toss out the rest. These are not optional, NONE of them.

Claudia, you said it right here. You have to do good works and it's not optional. All along you having been combining Christ's atonement with works on our part to achieve salvation. That is works based salvation 101.

 

[Brother Bob]

Sorry rbell.........

My answer to you on that point is if we sin and I don't believe in God's children committing terrible sins such as killing etc.

1Jo 2:1¶My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


2Cr 12:9And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Jud 1:24¶Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,


2Ti 1:12For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I don't know if that is close to what you believe or not rbell, but it is how I see osas.

 

[Eric B]

My wife's late husband professed a Christian for the 20 years they were married, yet he remained a drunkard and eventually died from acute ethanol toxicity.

Why did he die a drunkard? Because of bleeding heart liberals telling him he didn't have to deny self, take up his cross and follow Christ and he would still make it to heaven. He died because he believed the lie that he could continue in sin since he professed Christ and was baptized and went to church all those years.

He died because folks like you candy coat sin.

Oh, so it's the liberals' fault! That's a nice biblical conservative position to take. Just blame someone else. Perhaps he should be pardoned for his sin, because it's someone else's fault.

I actually wonder if you even read the Word of God for yourself, or just mimic the preachers who deny judgment for sin?

Quote:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

As has been said, not just by my wife, not just by HBSMN, but by me and other God fearing pastors who preach the truth. DRUNKARDS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD!
Are you denying that one who dies of acute ethanol toxicity is a drunkard? Are you denying the clear Word of God that no drunkard will inherit the Kingdom of God?
Man, you are blinder than I am.

Tim really hit the nail on the head. You tear singular verses like this out of their contexts, and then run with them, building a whole doctrine off of it that denies the essence of the Gospel, but you think it's correct because you have this proof-text.
Look at the surrounding context. You've questioned several times whether people "read their Bible", but "reading the Bible" often means reading whole chapters, at least; not just single verses. Paul says "such were some of you". You all have quoted this several times to support your doctrine of a person having to repent of each sin after the fact to sill be saved. But let the scripture speak for itself! What it's telling them, is that they are saved now. But why is he warning them? Because the Corinthians were falling back into various sins, as they are well known for. Paul is telling them, this is how you behaved when you WERE unsaved and heading for Hell. Now that you are saved; you should not be acting like that. Again, love for God who saved us, is the motive. He does not go on denying they were ever truly Christian because of those sins. He's telling them they should be different. Just like "Work OUT (not FOR) your salvation". You are ALREADY saved; now ACT like it; do the works that are to accompany it (not EARN or KEEP it through acts). The penalty for sin would be the Judgment seat of Christ.

If I'm told or convicted that I'm acting like the hellbound world; that is quite enough to pique my conscience and drive me to repentance, without any threat of Hell. Again, it is about LOVE. And THIS is how we grow and bear fruits by the power of God!
But it seems this is not enough for you all, who act like you despise His grace; and how dare anybody get by with any sin; like you all are the Kindgom police, or the guardian at the gate. We do not distort the Gospel just to try to motivate people to do good. That is the mistake the Church made in the past, and while people think that is what kept society "good" all those years, it is actually one big reason why all of these "liberals" and others revolted in the first place!
As I had said yesterday:
Again, while our behavior will be changed (perfected), what doesn't change when you go down and come up is what is counted to you: Either sin, or Christ's righteousness. But you all are focusing is strictly behavior.

 

[DeeJay]

De Jay,


I really dont think that you were quite humble enough here..


When you say:

"The Lord does good works thru me I do nothing on my own."


If you were TRULY humble than you would have to say this:

"The Lord does good works through me, in whom alone is my life, my being, my all in all, and I do nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing on my own"


...otheriwse I detect a wee bit of pride still in what you had said.


..and we of course wouldnt want that.

Well, I am a sinner and am still being worked on by the Lord. He has a lot of work to do, no doubt.

 

[Claudia_T]

Claudia, you said it right here. You have to do good works and it's not optional. All along you having been combining Christ's atonement with works on our part to achieve salvation. That is works based salvation 101.

IM thinking it probably has something to do with thats what the Bible says?

James 2
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Claudia_T]

WORKS 101:

James 2:
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

 

[tragic_pizza]

So is this the chicken or the egg?

 

[Eric B]

That Eric is absolute nonsense.

I think maybe you dont even read the things I say. it has nothing to do with being "sinless".

I think you ought to just go take time to actually read the things Ive said.

I didn't particularly attribute the notion of "sinless" to you. I was pointing out where your side's logic leads. You brush "it" off as nonsense, but I had said a lot there, and I'm still trying to understand your idea of what the power of God does. If you're going to make works the determining factor to salvation, and attribute it to the power of God, then one would expect God would make us absolutely. literally perfect (sinless). If not, then more grace is required than what you all seem to be teaching.

Oh, and I forgot about this one:

This is a prime example of how you guys all seem to wind God right up to some legalistic tyrant... then you turn around after doing that and say "see? I cant possibly do what God says so Im tossing out anything where He commands me to do anything"
Its just not right!

Here are you guys ...a picture painted for you... God never REALLY asks people to do whats impossible for them to do but He goes along with this guys EXCUSE...

Matthew 25
24: Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26: His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

God is saying, after the guy *sighs* and says Lord I knew you are a terrible legalistic Tyrant, expecting me to do the impossible.... so I went and just buried my talent...

God answers, well if you REALLY thought I was this way... well why didnt you then DO AS I ASKED?

Again, you are twisting what we are saying. If we were actually saying (or telling others) "Oh, you can't be perfect, so just don't try to obey at all", THEN we would be more like that person. But you cannot find one single post where anyone says anything like that. No, you interpret our posts and filter your own "implications" into them (just like you and your SDA compatriot do with the sabbath/Law issue) to paint us as antinomians, which would automatically exhonerate your view as true by default (which is a highly dishonest tactic, and itself a sin!)

 

[Amy.G]

IM thinking it probably has something to do with thats what the Bible says?

James 2
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Works are the evidence that we are saved, not the reason we are saved.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His ownlove toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

 

[webdog]

is this a lie?

Hebrews 6
4: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5: And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6: If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


You cannot be plucked from Jesus hand if you dont want to be. true.



"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."

Notice it does not say BELIEVED with an ed at the end??? like in the past tense?

No, that's not a lie, if anything it refutes the loss of salvation argument you put forth. If you had really been saved, it would be impossible to reacquire salvation if you could actually lose it.

You cannot be plucked from Jesus hand if you don't want to be. true.

That goes against NO MAN can pluck them from my Father's hand. The text does NOT state "no man can pluck them from My Father's hand, if they want to remain in My Father's hand. Your meaning is adding to the plain truths of Scripture.

 

[DHK]

The Word of God shows me what was in Charlie's heart. .

You do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.
The Word of God does not show you what is in man's heart.
You do not know what is in Charlie's heart, only God does--so stop the playing God and stop the personal attacks or they will be documented and taken to the administrative council. Attacking another members salvation is against the rules.

"The heart is deceiful above all things and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9)
--The answer to that question is not you.

 

[webdog]

WORKS 101:

James 2:
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

To summarize: faith without works is dead like a car without a battery is dead. The faith still is faith, as the car still remains a car. They are not doing the purpose meant for each respectively, faith and the car, but they do not cease to exist. This is applying the calvinist's definition of "dead" (corpse)where clearly it should not be applied.

 

[Claudia_T]

Works are the evidence that we are saved, not the reason we are saved.
Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates His ownlove toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Amy


I fully realize that and I truly cant see why anyone would get any different view out of what I have said.


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

To summarize: faith without works is dead like a car without a battery is dead. The faith still is faith, as the car still remains a car. They are not doing the purpose meant for each respectively, faith and the car, but they do not cease to exist. This is applying the calvinist's definition of "dead" (corpse)where clearly it should not be applied.

I dont know how you can say that when it says faith itself is DEAD if it doesnt have works and it also says your faith cannot SAVE YOU if thats the case. Thats not hard to see in that passage at all.

 

[Allan]

I fully realize that and I truly cant see why anyone would get any different view out of what I have said.
Claudia

Because of one little word you absolutely refuse to believe. That we are saved NOW.
If you COULD fall away from or loose your salvation then the scriptures would never state that it is a done deal BEFORE you are dead. It would ALWAYS show it as a work in progress. And yet we find a multituted of verses stating it is a finished (past tense) work concerning the believer WHEN they believed by faith. Here is a scripture I believe irrefutable on the subject (it is one of many )

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

NOTE: 'Saved' is in the orginal Greek is in past perfect tense showing a completed act HAS been done. Which takes works out of the equation and keeps your boasting silent.
It is also in the passive voice which means The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. And in no way indicates the action is continued on nor is it completed by the subject. Interesting how one word can unravil such things like conditional salvation.

We can not save ourselves and by that token if we can not save ourselves we (with great assurance) can not keep ourselves saved since it was an act of God to begin with. Unless of course you are greater than God who saved you.

It is of note what John stated in I John 2:19:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

or for a different perspective in the NLT:

These people left our churches because they never really belonged with us; otherwise they would have stayed with us. When they left us, it proved that they do not belong with us.
New Living Translation © 1996 Tyndale Charitable Trust

 

[Claudia_T]

Allan,

you said:

"We can not save ourselves and by that token if we can not save ourselves we (with great assurance) can not keep ourselves saved since it was an act of God to begin with. Unless of course you are greater than God who saved you."


the problem is He doesnt save you unless you repent... of your sins... so this idea is false...


kinda like where it talks about the pig going back to wallow in the mire


of course the act of God saving you is all an act of God


I believe God wants our voluntary LOVE

repentence has to do with choosing to be sorry that you have not loved God or your neighbor and deciding you want to start


Its like you all keep saying see? see? its all God who saves us! see that??

and I say YES I see that!

then you say Claudia you just dont get it!

and I say Yes I do!


the problem is God doesnt save us unless we repent.

and just like you can choose to repent you can also choose to go back to the mire

Many are asking the same question as did the multitude on the Day of Pentecost, when, convicted of sin, they cried out, "What shall we do?" The first word of Peter's answer was, "Repent." Acts 2:37, 38. At another time, shortly after, he said, "Repent, . . . and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out." Acts 3:19