Pope Gregory XIII...calendars...Easter and Baptist...oh my

[Agnus_Dei]

So was this "Rule of Nicaea" or the Gregorian calendar (whether used for Easter, or only for other feasts; why do you follow "the Pope" for even those then) one of those "traditions" that was passed down from the apostles?

A problem with the Julian Calendar (45 BC) slowly manifested itself since the exact solar year consists of 365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes and 47.8 seconds. The difference between the Julian system and the solar cycle of about 11 minutes becomes appreciable only in the course of several centuries. Hence the creation of the Gregorian Calendar from Pope Gregory in 1582, where the Pope eliminated 10 days from the year 1582 and the Pope also installed the Leap Year rule which is in effect to this day.

The RULE Of NICAEA states that Pascha shall be the first Sunday (Lord’s Day) after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. Only now we Orthodox shall not celebrate Pascha at the same time as the Jewish Feast of Passover. This exception clause is not followed by the Western Churches as it is by the Orthodox Churches.

In XC
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[Joseph M. Smith]

I am reminded of the time I answered the phone at the church, and an unidentified lady asked me who she could speak to concerning the date of Easter. It seems the date that was being used that year was not convenient for her!

I didn't know that there was any answer, but I was pretty sure I was not the person to take action on it!!

 

[bound]

The RULE Of NICAEA states that Pascha shall be the first Sunday (Lord’s Day) after the first full moon after the Vernal Equinox. Only now we Orthodox shall not celebrate Pascha at the same time as the Jewish Feast of Passover. This exception clause is not followed by the Western Churches as it is by the Orthodox Churches.

So are you saying that the Orthodox Church amended THE RULE OF NICEA with this clause "except on the Jewish Feast of Passover"... ?

When did that happen?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

So are you saying that the Orthodox Church amended THE RULE OF NICEA with this clause "except on the Jewish Feast of Passover"... ?

When did that happen?

My understanding from Catechesis is that there wasn’t an “amendment”. Not all Bishops were able to attend the First Ecumenical Council in 325 AD, therefore St. Constantine sent out epistles to those Bishops unable to attend and also the Synod to the Church of Alexandria. Within these letters the rule was further explained…

Hope that helps.

In XC
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[Eric B]

Still, is that rule supposed to be apostolic?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Still, is that rule supposed to be apostolic?

Is it Apostolic? How about is it Holy Scripture…An obvious reading of St. John’s Gospel we learn that our Christian Pascha always comes after the Jewish Passover. Therefore, with the changes implement by the Gregorian calendar and with the Orthodox formula used to calculate Pascha, it was possible that Pascha could fall on or before the Jewish Passover. Thus the Rule of Nicaea was enacted, which meant celebrating Pascha AFTER the Jewish Passover serves to remind us of this historic truth.

So is it Apostolic Tradition or just plain ‘ol common sense as to when to celebrate Pascha based off Holy Scripture?

In XC
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[Eric B]

Where does John say that they "ALWAYS" hold it "after" the Passover? Where do you see a rule made deliberately avoiding the days coinciding?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Where does John say that they "ALWAYS" hold it "after" the Passover? Where do you see a rule made deliberately avoiding the days coinciding?

I'm scratching my head Eric, but where do we read that the Resurrection was before the Jewish Passover? With the obvious answer, when would it make sense to celebrate Pascha?

In XC
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[Eric B]

Where do you see me saying anything about the Resurrection? We're talking about the Church's Pascha observance, and avoiding it coinciding with the Passover. Your side is the one who says the early church had liturgy because it came out of the synagogue. so then why would they avoid the Jews' date of Passover (and again, one of the key ECF's, Polycarp, upheld the Jews' date, for every year, not always on a Sunday, which we do not see commanded in there either!)

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Claudius Apollinaris Bishop of Hierapolis A.D.
160-180.“There are, then, some who through ignorance raise disputes about these things (though their conduct is pardonable: for ignorance is no subject for blame – it rather needs further instruction), and say that on the fourteenth day the Lord ate the lamb with the disciples, and that (then) on the great day of the feast of unleavened bread He Himself suffered; and they quote Matthew as speaking in accordance with their view. Wherefor their opinion is contrary to the Law, and the Gospels seem to be at variance with them.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"The fourteenth day the true Passover of the Lord; the great Sacrifice, the Son of God instead of the lamb, who was bound, who bound the strong, and who judged, though Judge of living and dead, and who was delivered into the hands of sinners to be crucified, who was lifted up on the horns of the Unicorn, and who was pierced in his holy side, who poured forth from his side the two purifying elements, water and blood, word and spirit, and who was buried on the day of the Passover, the stone being placed upon the tomb." (Writings of Claudius Apollinaris, Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol 8, pages 772-773).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

"When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was universally thought that it would be convenient that ALL should keep THE FEAST ON ONE DAY; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable, than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of immortality, celebrated by all WITH ONE ACCORD, and in the same MANNER? It was declared to be PARTICULARLY UNWORTHY for this, the HOLIEST of all festivals, TO FOLLOW THE CUSTOM [THE CALCULATION] OF THE JEWS . . . " ”
What is this MOST IMPORTANT IMPLICATION that emerges from reading Apollinarus’ arguments and the comments thereon? I have obviated it because
this is never noticed, and it is VERY SIMPLE AND VISIBLE! It is this, 1, “that ALL should keep the Feast ON ONE DAY”!
“THE CUSTOM [THE CALCULATION] OF THE JEWS” . . . Where did I read about this? . . . In the Gospels perhaps? Was it not Luke? Luke, yes! Where in
Luke? . . . Was it not where he writes of Jesus’ crucifixion? Crucifixion? . . . Let me quickly check! . . . Ah, here it is. He says, 23:54, “And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on”. Yes, this is significant – Luke in fact here gives important detail, but it is not what I had in mind. . . . Somewhere else it speaks of the Jew’s <custom>. Let’s try John, 19 . . . let’s take it from verse verse 38. “And after this . . . there came also . . . by night, verse 39 . . . . then took they the body . . . Ah! Here it is, verse 40! “Then took they the body of Jesus . . . as the manner of the Jews is to
bury”! The “some who through ignorance raise disputes about these things … and say that on the fourteenth day the Lord ATE the (Passover) lamb with the disciples, and that ON THE GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST (15 Nisan!) of Unleavened Bread He Himself SUFFERED” (= crucifixion AND death) – are those for whom it was “particularly unworthy” to have “the HOLIEST of all (Christian) festivals, to follow the custom of the Jews”, and who would have the Passover Feast “ON ONE DAY” while the Jewish “CUSTOM” (or “manner”) was to have it on more than one day, on 14 AND on 15 Nisan! They SPLIT the Passover and made of it TWO feasts, “Good Friday” and “Easter”.
Apollinaris also explains what “some through ignorance raise disputes about”. He explains their mistake in saying “… that on the fourteenth day the Lord ate the lamb …”. The first error of these ‘ignorant’ was to think the Passover lamb was eaten that night of the fourteenth Nisan when Jesus went into the upper room with his disciples. There is nothing wrong with their dating at this stage – the beginning of fourteen Nisan after sunset – when Jesus indeed did join the disciples at table. The second error of these ‘ignorant’ people was that they “say … that on the Great Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread – which is 15 Nisan – He himslef suffered” (was killed)!
“Some through ignorance say: “The Lord ate the LAMB (ate Passover) with the disciples on the fourteenth, BUT (“And” with the connotation of “further erring”) that on the GREAT DAY of the Feast of Unleavened Bread (on 15 Nisan) He himself suffered (was crucified) …”.
“Some through ignorance” erred by reason of their “manner” of reckoning the ‘Jewish’ day in a ‘Roman’ world the ‘Roman’ way from midnight to midnight. “Wherefor their opinion is contrary to the law, and the Gospels (are at variance with them.”
Apollinaris was a ‘quartodeciman’. He celebrated Passover as a Christian would. For Apollinaris there was no contradiction in the Gospels or in the mainline Christian “opinion”. The ignorant “Need(ed) further instruction”.
“I will ransom thee from the power of the GRAVE (15 Nisan); I will redeem thee from DEATH (14 Nisan): O death. I will be thy plague (Jesus’ dying – day one); O grave, I will be thy destruction (Jesus’ interment – day two) … I will be thy KING (Jesus’ resurrection – day three). … I gave thee a KING in mine anger (“… delivered them Jesus”), and took Him away in my wrath (crucifixion and death). The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid. (interment) … I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely; for my anger is turned away from Him (Resurrection!) … After TWO days (14 and 15 Nisan – death and burial) He will revive us; in the THIRD day He will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.” Hosea 13:14, 10-12, 14:4, 6:2.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

What are Apollinaris, Hosea, the Gospels, and Paul, here speaking of? Don’t they all tell how Jesus our Passover Lamb was slain and buried? “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES . . . AND BURIED”! “According to the Scriptures THE THIRD DAY RAISED”!
Three things on three consecutive days – according to three things:
1, “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES”, 2, “ACCORDING TO JEWISH CUSTOM”, and, 3, ACCORDING TO “PASSOVER FEAST”, CHRONOLOGY OR “CALCULATION”.
Hosea’s prophecy is clearly Paschal-orientated. That is not only seen from the whole context, but from specific references like 6:2. “I am exactly (KJV “yet”) the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt have no god but Me: For there is no saviour but Me.” Compare this with the Passover history of Exodus 12 to 16! “But God led the people out” (14:18) “The LORD is my strength and song; He is become my salvation” (15:2) etc.. Then notice 14:13, “He will show you TODAY: … You shall see (the Egyptians) no more!”. “Today”, “Thou shallt bring them IN!” (15:17) Notice THIS THE THIRD day in contrast to the TWO FIRST DAYS: Both the first two days are connected with FOURTEEN Nisan, as has been shown so many times in this treatise. For that THIRD day in fact was SIXTEEN Nisan, while 14 Nisan HAD BECOME TWO DAYS, 14 Nisan AND 15 Nisan, the first pair of days of Passover. Hence Hosea’s way of analysing the Passover, “after two days … in the third day …”.
Paul gives “the Scriptures” the same emphasis in 1Cor.15, verses 3 and 4, “First of all that which I also accept true and believe: How that Christ according to the Scriptures died for our sins (on the first day of Passover): How that He also was buried (on the second day of Passover), and, How that He, the-according-to-the-Scriptures-third-day, rose again.”
The big fight in the early Church wasn’t merely about pushing the “Christian Easter” away from and after the Jewish Passover! The Jewish Feast over “THREE DAYS” that found its climax in the events of “the third day according to the Scriptures”, according to “some” had to be condensed into “ONE DAY”, says
Apollinaris, so that “ALL” should keep it the way these “ignorant” would have it.

Here’s how those “scribes” corrupted the Word of God. They changed “TIMES AND LAW” that “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES” actualised on THREE consecutive days, by ‘TRANSLATING’ it so as to SEEM to have occurred on just TWO days. Forcing into ONE day Jesus’ crucifixion AND
burial they made void of one day altogether, to create “STILL SATURDAY”.
“According to the Scriptures” – the Passover of Yahweh-Scriptures – “the remains” of the Passover Sacrifice of God’s own Lamb was BURIED on the SECOND first day of Passover Feast Season, ONLY AFTER EGYPT’S CAPITAL HAD BEEN EXITED; ONLY AFTER DYING AND THE PLACE OF SUFFERING HAD BEEN LEFT BEHIND. The lamb’s “remains” (as were the bones of Jacob) were in that night after slaughter, brought without of Rameses and was returned, “the next day”, to God’s earth (in the “land / garden”, says John) by burning in the wilderness at Succoth. In Jesus’ case his body in that night after slaughter, was taken from the cross and prepared for interment, “the next day”!
“The fourteenth day the true Passover of the Lord ”, says Apollinaris. Notice this passage has no indicative finite verb. The semi-colon should be replaced with a colon – THUS: Then read: “The fourteenth day: BEHOLD! The true Passover of the Lord : The Great Sacrifice, the Son of God, instead of the lamb, who was bound, who bound the strong, and who judged, though judge of living and dead, and who was delivered into the hands of sinners to be crucified, who was lifted up on the horns of the Unicorn, and who was pierced in his holy side, who poured forth from his side the two purifying elements, water and blood, word and spirit . . . ”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Clearly Apollinaris supposes all these to have been events of 14 Nisan. (He gets a bit mixed up though the moment he employs Greek myth.) Then by ellipsis Apollinaris continues,
“The fifteenth day – NOTICE: THE TRUE Passover of the Lord: who was buried THE DAY of the Passover, the stone being placed upon the tomb”. (“THE GREAT DAY OF THE FEAST”, above.)
This is a categorical affirmation of the fact Jesus’ interment was not of the same day as his crucifixion and death. Crucifixion and Burial which “according to the Scriptures” should have actualised on two consequtive days, and “Times and Law” of Passover which “according to the Scriptures” should have actualised on three consequtive days, so had to be interpreted as to seem to have occurred on two days only, reducing one to emptiness and aptly called “Still Saturday”. But on the “contrary” – “according to the custom of the Jews” – their Passover – found buried “According to the Scriptures” – the Passover of Yahweh-Scriptures – “the remains” of “our Passover” after Egypt’s capital had been exited; after place and day of dying and suffering had been left behind. “The Dead” had been buried “the next day” … “according to (Passover) Scriptures”. Says Apollinaris, “Behold! : The true Passover of the Lord: Who indeed was buried on the Day of Passover, the stone being placed upon the tomb!”

 

[EdSutton]

Just out of curiosity, where does it say that there should be any so-called "Easter Sunday" celebrated? Our Lord was crucified on "Passover" or 14 Nisan/Abib and rose on "firstfruits," which in that year was 17 Nisan/Abib or the day "after the Sabbath."

Why do we not celebrate on "first-fruits" which is the anniversary of the resurrection, instead of artificially making this date to be Sunday, every year?

G'nite, boys and girls. :sleeping_2:

Ed

 

[Eric B]

It stems from the interpretation of what "after the Sabbath" meant. The Sadducees took it to mean the weekly sabbath, hence always a Sunday. Yet the Pharisees sait it was after the annual sabbath, the first day of unleavened bread. This could be any day of the week. Then, the debate as to which group had authority. the Sadducees ruled the Temple at the time, but the Pharisaical Segans maintained the religious observance. And Jesus did say the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat; not the Sadducees, who were in error on some points such as the resurrection. And also, if it was the weekly sabbath, that could fall anywhere in the week, yet the eating of unleavened bread was to begin on the firstfruits celebration yet be done the whole week, not waiting until after the weekly sabbath.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It stems from the interpretation of what "after the Sabbath" meant. The Sadducees took it to mean the weekly sabbath, hence always a Sunday. Yet the Pharisees sait it was after the annual sabbath, the first day of unleavened bread. This could be any day of the week. Then, the debate as to which group had authority. the Sadducees ruled the Temple at the time, but the Pharisaical Segans maintained the religious observance. And Jesus did say the Pharisees sat in Moses' seat; not the Sadducees, who were in error on some points such as the resurrection. And also, if it was the weekly sabbath, that could fall anywhere in the week, yet the eating of unleavened bread was to begin on the firstfruits celebration yet be done the whole week, not waiting until after the weekly sabbath.

GE:
Very well answered!
But one Ed Sutton got stuck on his First Sheaf Wave Offering on Nisan 17, which is the worst arithmatic I've seen in my life, while Nisan 14 is crucifixion and day the passover was slaughtered, Nisan 15 "that which remains" of the passover sacrificed be buried the very day of passover-sabbath, and Nisan 16 "the day after the sabbath" OF THE PASSOVER First Sheaf wave Offering should be waved before the LORD, "the third day according to the Scriptures".

But an entire thread wasted to open the eyes of one Ed Sutton so wise in his own eyes, for no reason at all but his worship of Sunday.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The above said, provided the exclusion of the following: "the eating of unleavened bread was to begin on the firstfruits celebration". Because clearly unleavened bread was first EATEN and the day FEASTED Nisan 15, during and together with the eating of the passover lamb in the night of it, the sabbath of the passover or passover Feast day as such (second day of passover season as a whole).