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Postincarnate Christ Part 2
- Thread starter percho
- Start date
Percho said↑
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
...Tom
Flesh and blood did not inherit the kingdom of God but flesh (spiritual) and bones did.
On the basis of 1 Cor. 15 I just cannot come to your conclusion. Whether "flesh and bones" or "flesh and blood" they are both part of what we are to be changed from. I do not want to write it all again but somewhere in this thread I try to show from 1 Cor 15 how that essence comes out of origin. Your verse that you quoted above is part of the proof. We first had the essence of Adam. We will have the essence of Christ - the pre-incarnate Christ. That is, we will have spiritual bodies.
Tom Riggle
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I believe 1 Cor 15 says the opposite.
This is the incarnate Christ. Lev 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.
Jesus committed the spirit of himself into the hands of his Father. Upon doing this Jesus the Son of God was dead. Without life. Jesus the Son of God did not raise himself out of the dead. God the Father raised Jesus the Son out of the dead, Gal 1:1
It is the spirit that is in the blood making alive the soul of the flesh. That is what gave life to the incarnate Son of God.
He poured out the soul of the flesh that was in his blood and that is hoe his blood made atonement for our souls.
Three days and three nights later God the Father made the dead Son of God alive to the Spirit. That is afterward, after the resurrection. 1 Cor 15:46 is about the last Adam IMHO Jesus was made life giving Spirit.
1 Cor 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
That is speaking of the last Adam.
That is the the essence of Christ we will have. The post incarnate Christ who died and was raised out of the dead.
I wonder why Josephus didn't write anything about Jesus coming in 70 AD and all those folks rising from the dead and disappearing?
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
...Tom
Flesh and blood did not inherit the kingdom of God but flesh (spiritual) and bones did.
On the basis of 1 Cor. 15 I just cannot come to your conclusion. Whether "flesh and bones" or "flesh and blood" they are both part of what we are to be changed from. I do not want to write it all again but somewhere in this thread I try to show from 1 Cor 15 how that essence comes out of origin. Your verse that you quoted above is part of the proof. We first had the essence of Adam. We will have the essence of Christ - the pre-incarnate Christ. That is, we will have spiritual bodies.
Tom Riggle
________________________________________________________________________________________
I believe 1 Cor 15 says the opposite.
This is the incarnate Christ. Lev 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.
Jesus committed the spirit of himself into the hands of his Father. Upon doing this Jesus the Son of God was dead. Without life. Jesus the Son of God did not raise himself out of the dead. God the Father raised Jesus the Son out of the dead, Gal 1:1
It is the spirit that is in the blood making alive the soul of the flesh. That is what gave life to the incarnate Son of God.
He poured out the soul of the flesh that was in his blood and that is hoe his blood made atonement for our souls.
Three days and three nights later God the Father made the dead Son of God alive to the Spirit. That is afterward, after the resurrection. 1 Cor 15:46 is about the last Adam IMHO Jesus was made life giving Spirit.
1 Cor 15:46 but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual.
That is speaking of the last Adam.
That is the the essence of Christ we will have. The post incarnate Christ who died and was raised out of the dead.
I wonder why Josephus didn't write anything about Jesus coming in 70 AD and all those folks rising from the dead and disappearing?
Thank you for starting this thread again. I do want to get involved again but other matters require attention.
First of all, for the sake of clarity, I point out that there is a sentence (in green) above that I did not say. From the way it is quoted it looks like I wrote it. I assume that you mistakenly quoted your own words as if they were mine. I wonder what passage allows you to say that spiritual flesh and bones could inherit the kingdom of God.
The part that I did not quote I want to get to later. I believe you are making an error here, but it will take more time to address that. But about Josephus: I believe he did indeed record a part of that event, although he did not understand it for what it was.
“Moreover at that feast which we call Pentecost [June 66 AD], as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, ‘Let us remove hence.’” [Wars 6.299 (6.5.3)]
We also have similar comments from Tacitus, Histories, Book 5, v. 13
An interesting comment from fellow Preterist Ed Stevens, :
“Note that Josephus gives us the exact day and hour when this event occurred (on the day of Pentecost at the hour of the evening sacrifices), where it occurred (in the Jerusalem Temple), and who witnessed it (the officiating priests). The Jewish priests testified about what they felt and heard in the Temple at night on Pentecost in the year AD 66, at the very time when the Zealot war with Rome was about to begin.
“This transfer of a large multitude from one place to another in the unseen realm seems to have been the resurrection of the dead and the change of the living saints, when they were caught up to be with Christ. This event occurred at Pentecost, fifty days after Passover. Notice also that it occurred at night, not during the daytime. That explains why no one noticed the snatching away of the living saints.” - Final Decade, page 221
Also, it is interesting that the location of this great noise of a multitude moving is the Temple. In Revelation 6:9-11
"9, And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10, And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11, And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10, And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11, And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
I cannot be dogmatic on this, but I think this is worth considering.
So you believe that Christ died spiritually? If so, there are serious problems with that. You either must say that Christ died twice, then, or you must then downplay - contrary to much Scripture - His physical death. And I do not see how you can say that He could not raise Himself out of the dead.
Yes, Gal. 1:1 says that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. But we cannot take that verse by itself. We also have John 10, where the Son has power to lay down and take up His own life.
“Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.
No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.” John 10:17-18
And we also have the Holy Spirit raising Christ:
"But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:11
The Bible is silent on a "spiritual death" of Christ, yet emphasizes His physical death.
If we are to judge by what is actually written (Gen, 3:15; Isa. 53; Psa. 22, etc.),the Gospels, 1 Cor. 15:3- 4; Gal. 3:1; 1 Pet. 3:18), we have no indication,of any spiritual death.
Because of the closing of the first thread and I could not quote from it I just copied and pasted post 119 of that thread and emboldened, -the pre-incarnate Christ from post 119. Who knows what color these computers make anything. To my knowledge I added no color.
Being at the incarnation I believe The Word was made flesh, I also believe by incarnation Christ was born flesh and blood as used in Lev 17:11 See also Heb 2:14 Whereas after the resurrection Christ told the eleven he was flesh and bones, no mention of blood. Now Christ being flesh and blood, in order for the Son who had been appointed heir of all things would have to be changed in order for, as heir, to become, the inheritor of the kingdom of God.
After the resurrection the soul of the flesh of him was no longer in the blood of him but he himself was made life giving spirit. 1 Cor 15:45 compared to 46. Compare to Rom 6:9
I believe Christ died for our sins. Whatever died means. I believe it means what God told Adam - מוֹת תָּמוּת
LXX - θανάτῳ ἀποθανεῗσθε. Whatever that means is what Christ did. To die, you shall die.
When the Son commended the spirit of him unto the the hands of the Father, the Son, to die died.
Previously you asked concerning the days of his flesh. My understanding of that is; When the soul of the flesh was in the blood.
then saith he to them, 'Exceedingly sorrowful is my soul -- unto death; abide ye here, and watch with me.' And having gone forward a little, he fell on his face, praying, and saying, 'My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as Thou.' Matt 26:38,39
Hebrews 5:7 who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared,