Praying to the dead - is it allowed?

[BobRyan]

There is enough on the news and on websites to show Catholics pray to their ancestors, to saints and to Mary in their efforts to

GodlyWoman

When someone dies, we, as Christians believe, that they're born again and now living in the presence of God. They are, in every sense of the word, "alive".

Why would you not want to pray to your dead loved ones, to saints, and to Mary, Jesus' Mother, and ask them to pray for you?

If it's wrong for some to pray to dead loved ones, the saints, and Mary as if they were very much alive and living in the presence of God then, IMHO, it's wrong for others to get into prayer groups and ask their family, friends, and pastor to pray for them.

Prayer is very much a part of Christian worship, whether it's to God or in asking someone else to pray for/with you.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1154069&postcount=87

I normally respond to this argument as follows.

1. The point is based on the claim that the DEAD are really the "ALIVE in every sense - in Christ not the DEAD" when in fact 1Thess 4 calls the saints who have died "The DEAD in Christ".

2. The point argues that we can communicate with the DEAD even though Isaiah 8:19 says that we are not to "consult the DEAD on behalf of the living".

3. When we pray to God we are consulting God on matters that concern us -- so also if we should do that to the DEAD.

4. Context note: Pagans have been praying to DEAD ancestors for millennia believing that although the physical body is DEAD the spirit of the dead ancestor is very much ALIVE and can hear prayers offerred with candles and incense and prayer wheels/prayer-beads etc.

BUT I have ignored a case where BOTH sides agree that the human that is in heaven is every bit alive as we are and NOT dead --

Matt 17 describes Moses and Elijah SHOWING that these are not DEAD. Elijah because he was translated to heaven without dying according to 2Kings and Moses because Jude quotes the book the "ASSUMPTION OF MOSES" as being true.

So what about prayers to THEM? Simply arguing that you can not do it because they are dead - does not work.

In that case I would argue that you still can not do it because there is nothing in scripture that shows any saint praying to them after they left earth - God alone is to worshipped -- God alone is to be prayed to...

Thoughts?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

An RC source perspective -

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”


Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!

..

 

[BobRyan]

Option 2 - "pray to the living" means "the living humans in heaven such as Moses and Elijah"

 

[donnA]

We are only to pray to God, not people, dead or alive.
When the desciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He said, 'Our Father', God is who we pray too.

 

[David Lamb]

We are only to pray to God, not people, dead or alive.
When the desciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He said, 'Our Father', God is who we pray too.

I fully agree.

 

[mcdirector]

We are only to pray to God, not people, dead or alive.
When the desciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He said, 'Our Father', God is who we pray too.

I agree too.

 

[SaggyWoman]

We are only to pray to God, not people, dead or alive.
When the desciples asked Jesus to teach them how to pray, He said, 'Our Father', God is who we pray too.

DITTO............................

 

[annsni]

In order to hear our prayers, a dead person (even one "alive" in heaven) would need to be omnipresent (able to be everywhere) and omniscient (all knowing - they'd need to be able to hear the silent prayers too). Those are only attributes that God retains. NO one else - angels, demons or even Satan - can be like this.

 

[BobRyan]

In Col 2 Paul condemns the "worship of angels" I suspect that such worship to "living beings in heaven that are NOT God" also involved "praying to them".

For me that would translate into a prohibition against praying to the few "special cases" of living people (those who never died) such as Enoch or Elijah.

The Isaiah 8:19 instruction against "consulting the dead on behalf of the living" would cover all the other dead saints etc.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Joe]

Sometimes when I am in a frisky mood
And my wife is tired, wanting to sleep
I kneel beside the bedside and pray to the dead

Please honey, wake up raying:

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I feel ya, Joe :laugh:!!

 

[Sgt. Fury]

I don't know where the idea of praying to the dead came from, unless as mentioned before it origingated in paganism, and crept into the RCC, where it has flourished.

There is no authorization for it in the Scriptures, which ought to be enough for anyone, but millions do not see this as a deterrent.

Is the idea that departed saints have more access to the Father than those living on earth? They could approach Him in no greater authority than that of Jesus Christ, in Whose Name we are told to pray.

I suppose when the Bible is not the final authority, anything goes...

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Praying to the dead is obviously allowed, as hundreds of thousands do it daily.

God allows man to make such foolish decisions.

Sin is allowed, but the penalty is death.

 

[Frogman]

The problem is that millions, or more, do not view the Bible as the pure word of God possessing final authority.

Look at all the 'documentary' series on T.V. successfully convincing many millions the Bible was written by man.

bro. Dallas

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Here is what I've heard explained to me by some who are Catholic Christians ---

If you really that to be absent from the body is to alive with the Lord --- then there is really no difference is asking "Joe" to pray for you versus asking St. Francis to pray for you.

Not saying I agree, but this is the way it was explained to me.

​

 

[standingfirminChrist]

It was explained wrong.

 

[annsni]

As I said before - for someone who is "alive" in heaven to hear the prayers of thousands/millions on earth, they would need to be omniscient (all-knowing - because not all prayers are verbal) and omnipresent (everywhere at the same time - otherwise they could only hear one prayer at a time - kind of like a confessional). Since these are qualities that only God possess, then we know that these saints in heaven cannot possibly hear our prayers.

 

[David Lamb]

Here is what I've heard explained to me by some who are Catholic Christians ---

If you really that to be absent from the body is to alive with the Lord --- then there is really no difference is asking "Joe" to pray for you versus asking St. Francis to pray for you.

Not saying I agree, but this is the way it was explained to me.

I am glad you say you don't agree with the explanation. There are differences. For a start, in the bible we have many examples of:
1. people on earth praying for other people on earth. 1 Thessalonians 1.2:

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers.



​

2. people on earth asking other people on earth to pray for them. 2 Thessalonians 3.1:

Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may run swiftly and be glorified, just as it is with you.



​

3. direct instruction to pray for other people on earth. 1 Timothy 2.1-2:

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence.

​

But we do not have a single example in Scripture of anyone asking, or being told to ask, anyone in heaven to pray for them. (We are told Hebrews 7.25 that Jesus Christ "always lives to make intercession for" His people).

Secondly, the idea of marking out some Christians as "saints", such as "St Francis," "St Joan," and so on, is not biblical. "Saint" in bible terms means any Christian, and does not refer to some higher class of believer.

Those things, and possibly others too, mean that there is indeed a difference between asking Joe down the road to pray for you and asking "Saint" Francis to pray for you.

 

[BobRyan]

Here is what I've heard explained to me by some who are Catholic Christians ---

If you really that to be absent from the body is to alive with the Lord --- then there is really no difference is asking "Joe" to pray for you versus asking St. Francis to pray for you.

I agree this is their argument.

And it fails in thiese areas -

1. Isaiah 8:19 tells us not to consult the dead on behalf of the living -- so "no praying to the dead".

In 1Thess 4 they are called "the DEAD in Christ" not the "Suddenly ALIVE in Christ"

Even the RCC sources themselves admit that this is the RCC version of "ancestor worship" and "praying to the family gods".

2. Col 2 forbids the "worship of angels" who by all accounts are "alive" in heaven.

3. WE SEE Elijah and Moses in Matt 17 ALIVE -- but still have NO examples in all of scripture of anyone praying to them.

4. EVEN the RCC itself does not permit praying to the living!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Is 8
19 When they say to you, "" Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,'' should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Cath Digest 9/1993 pg 129
Question:
“My husband has been transferred to Japan and we have been here in Hiroshima for about two months. On a site seeing tour the Japanese guide brought me to a Buddhist shrine. There were statues of Buddha everywhere. The guide told me they represented different aspects of life and that the people offer food to the Buddhas and ask for Favors. It made me think of Our Catholic praying to the saints and wonder whether they have anything like the Ten Commandments to guide them.

There were fountains at the gate where pious visitors washed their hands before entering the shrine grounds. Could this be the same as our holy water?”


Ans:
“Very probably the physical washing signifies some kind of spiritual cleansing, AS it does with Us! Some Muslims say prayers on rosarylike beads Just as We do, so there is no copyright enforced on prayerful customs among the great world religions. The Pagan Romans prayed, each family to its Own household gods, JUST as we do to our patron saints. In Old Testament times the gentile had local gods for their town or country, and our Christian Saints eventually supplanted Them!

The Hebrews, of Course, had the mission of Wiping Out such heathen worship[/b] with the worship of the one true God, and while they have always had great respect for spiritual heroes, they Never set up any of their own race as substitutes for the local pagan gods!!
They had no need to make distinctions between praying TO the saints for their intercession with god and total adoration of God as the source of everything, as we must!