Pre-trib rapture

Thank you Dwmoeller1. This could be interesting.
I might mention that I have my own unique theory
of the pretribuation rapture/resurrection. So, of course,
I'm insulted when some here insist that it is Daryby-ism
or Ice-ism or Scofield-ism or 'Mal-Couch'-ism. It is
'Edward Edwards'-ism plain and simple.

At least two people have tryed to blow me out of the
water here because I mentioned the Baptist distintive:
the Doctrine of Soul Compenticy. I learned with the Holy
Spirit as teacher from the Bible what the future holds
-- I didn't read it in some other book.

Here is my writing: ten doctrines:
-------------------------------------
The correct eschatology: pretribulation rapture,
pre-millinnial Second Advent of Jesus (physical Millinnial
Kingdom) Futurist, is insperatable from the other Major
Doctrines. No Major doctrine is complete without the
pretirublation rapture/resurrection.

Recall these are the Major Doctrines:

Bibliology - The Study of the Bible
Theology - The Study of God the Father
Christology - The Study of God the Son
Pneumatology - The Study of God the Holy Spirit
Anthropology - The Study of Man
Hamartiology - The Study of Sin
Soteriology - The Study of Salvation
Ecclesiology - The Study of the Church
Angelology - The Study of Angels (& devils)

Eschatology - The Study of Last Things

Eschatology is interwoven with the other Doctrines
of the Bible. Obviously i spend all my time making
a living and supporting the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
eschatology on the internet, else i would write a book showing
how these great doctrines taught in the Bible all lead ONLY
to the correct Eschatology: pretrib, pre-mill, and futuristic.
(Well, till the Lord comes to glorify us at the pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection - Then the whole Gentile Church will be
Preterists )
-----------------------------------

 

In other words, you can't possibly consider the notion that it's false or you'd be out of a job?

 

In the past we at BB (Baptist Board) have had two sets of
conflicting definitions of basic terms. Here are the terms:

Resurrection1 - the bringing of a dead person to life again
in a glorified body

Rapture1 - the transformation of a living person to
life in a glorified body (like a resurrection1 only for a
living person)

Rapture2 - A Biblically predicted future event in which Jesus
will first resurrect1 the dead Church Age saints then
immediately rapture1 those Church Age
elect saints alive at the time

Resurrection2 - A Biblically predicted future event in which Jesus
will first resurrect1 the dead Tribulation saints then
immediately rapture1 those Tribulation
elect saints alive at the time.

Some usages:

Post-tribulation ressurrection2-ist: "There is no such
thing as a rapture"
What do they mean?
Rapture1 - It is in the Bible at 1 Thess 4:18, called
the 'raptos' in Latin, the 'caught up' in English. - they can't mean that
Rapture2 - that is probably what they mean???

Ed Edwards: "I believe the Bible teaches a pretribulation
rapture1/resurrection1"
"I believe the Bible teaches a pretribulation rapture2.

 

I actually retired from the secular job I spake about.
I am, however, raising two grandchildren - which is more of
work and lots less money than that secular job.

Just for good sport, I'll go help them prove the post-tribulation
rapture1/resurrection1 theory. Which we will find out is
a post-tribulation ONLY rapture1/resurrection1 theory.

 

I was just giving him a hard time for fun. I should have put a smiley in there, I guess.

 

dwmoeller1: //Can you clarify and/or support your definition?//

No. What do you mean when you say 'rapture'?

dwmoeller1: //First of all, can you clarify if you are saying that rapture1 and rapture2 are different events. Ditto to resurrection1 and resurrection2.//

I'm not sure I can.
But i'm sure we will not even be communicating with each other,
let alone convincing anybody, until we figure out what we
are talking about.

I have to go raise some grandchildren.

 

The following words were written in this order by
Ed Edwards (probably about 8 years ago):

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the beginning of eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Smilies are nice :godisgood:

Here is the Baptist smilie: :wavey:

Note both feet are squarely on the ground
(no dancing like carismatics).
Note only one hand is raised at a time
(no both hands like Pentacostals)

 

(1) At the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

(2) The Second Coming occurs after the great and terrible Tribulation (Revelation chapters 6-19). The Rapture occurs before the Tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

(3) The Rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17; 5:9). The Second Coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

(4) The Rapture will be “secret” and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54). The Second Coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

(5) The Second Coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6-18). The Rapture is imminent, it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Yea! We won't be here for the Trib!! Hooray!!

 

I've been 'discussing' eschatology since June 1984 on
Bulletin Boards (bbs) alone. At some time along that route
I started saving the more interesting posts for later re-use.

Note I did NOT say 23 years (come June) on the Internet
(I hadn't gotten with Al Gore yet in 1984 to design
the Internet) - I said 23 years (less 3 months) on Bulletin
Boards (where you post now and read replies later).

dwmoeller1: // Is this post a start to your argument or is it still
background material introducing your actual
argument yet to come?//

Yes. :wavey:

 

Thank you Bubba DQuixote -- i've got seven more

pending ...

 

27 each day of the Lord found:

Isa 13:6 (HCSB): Wail! For the day of the Lord is near.
It will come like destruction from the Almighty.

Isa 13:9 (HCSB): Look, the day of the Lord is coming-
cruel, with rage and burning anger-
to make the earth a desolation
and to destroy the sinners on it.

La 2:22 (HCSB): You summoned my attackers on every side,
as if [for] an appointed festival day;
on the day of the Lord's anger
no one escaped or survived.
My enemy has destroyed
those I nurtured and reared.

Eze 7:19 (HCSB): They will throw their silver into the streets,
and their gold will seem like something filthy.
Their silver and gold will be unable to save them
in the day of the Lord's wrath.
They will not satisfy their appetites
or fill their stomachs,
for these were the stumbling blocks
that brought about their iniquity.

Eze 13:5 (HCSB): You did not go up to the gaps or restore
the wall around the house of Israel so that it might stand in battle
on the day of the Lord.

Ho 9:5 (HCSB): What will you do on a festival day,
on the day of the Lord's feast?

Joe 1:15 (HCSB): Woe because of that day!
For the day of the Lord is near
and will come as devastation from the Almighty.

Joe 2:1 (HCSB): Blow the horn in Zion;
sound the alarm on My holy mountain!
Let all the residents of the land tremble,
for the day of the Lord is coming;
in fact, it is near-

Joe 2:11 (HCSB): The Lord raises His voice
in the presence of His army.
His camp is very large;
Those who carry out His command are powerful.
Indeed, the day of the Lord is terrible and dreadful -
who can endure it?

Joe 2:31 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the great and awe inspiring day of the Lord comes.

Joe 3:14 (HCSB): Multitudes, multitudes
in the valley of decision!
For the day of the Lord is near
in the valley of decision.

Am 5:18 (HCSB): Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord!
What will the day of the Lord be for you?
It will be darkness and not light.

Am 5:20 (HCSB): Won't the day of the Lord
be darkness rather than light,
even gloom without any brightness in it?

Ob 1:15 (HCSB): For the day of the Lord is near,
against all the nations.
As you have done, so it will be done to you;
what you deserve will return on your own head.

Zep 1:7 (HCSB): Be silent in the presence of the Lord God,
for the day of the Lord is near.
Indeed, the Lord has prepared a sacrifice;
He has consecrated His guests.

Zep 1:8 (HCSB): On the day of the Lord's sacrifice
I will punish the officials, the king's sons,
and all who are dressed in foreign clothing.

Zep 1:14 (HCSB): The great day of the Lord is near,
near and rapidly approaching.
Listen, the day of the Lord-
there the warrior's cry is bitter.

Zep 1:18 (HCSB): Their silver and their gold
will not be able to rescue them
on the day of the Lord's wrath.
The whole earth will be consumed
by the fire of His jealousy.
For He will make a complete,
yes, a horrifying end
of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Zep 2:2 (HCSB): before the decree takes effect
and the day passes like chaff,
before the burning of the Lord's anger overtakes you,
before the day of the Lord's anger overtakes you.

Zep 2:3 (HCSB): Seek the Lord, all you humble of the earth,
who carry out what He commands.
Seek righteousness, seek humility;
perhaps you will be concealed
on the day of the Lord's anger.

Zec 14:1 (HCSB): A day of the Lord is coming when your plunder will be divided

in your presence.

Mal 4:5 (HCSB): Look, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the great and

awesome day of the Lord comes.

Ac 2:20 (HCSB): The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the

great and remarkable day of the Lord comes;

1Co 5:5 (HCSB): turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his

spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2 (HCSB): For you yourselves know very well that the day of the Lord will

come just like a thief in the night.

2Th 2:2 (HCSB): not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a

message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the day of the Lord has come.

2Pe 3:10 (HCSB): But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; on that day the

heavens will pass away with a loud noise, the elements will burn and be dissolved, and

the earth and the works on it will be disclosed.

3 each day of Christ found:

Php 1:6 (HCSB): I am sure of this, that He who started a good work in you will carry it

on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Php 1:10 (HCSB): so that you can determine what really matters and can be pure and

blameless in the day of Christ,

Php 2:16 (HCSB): Hold firmly the message of life. Then I can boast in the day of

Christ that I didn't run in vain or labor for nothing.

3 each day of God found:

Job 20:28 (HCSB): The possessions in his house will be removed,
flowing away on the day of God's anger.

2Pe 3:12 (HCSB): as you wait for and earnestly desire the coming of the day of

God, because of which the heavens will be on fire and be dissolved, and the elements

will melt with the heat.

Re 16:14 (HCSB): For they are spirits of demons performing signs, who travel to the

kings of the whole world to assemble them for the battle of the great day of God,

the Almighty.

7 each day of judgment found:

Mt 10:15 (HCSB): I assure you: It will be more tolerable
on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.

Mt 11:22 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the

day of judgment than for you.

Mt 11:24 (HCSB): But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the

day of judgment than for you."

Mt 12:36 (HCSB): I tell you that on the day of judgment people will have to

account for every careless word they speak.

2Pe 2:9 (HCSB): then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to keep

the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,

2Pe 3:7 (HCSB): But by the same word the present heavens and earth are held in store

for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

1Jo 4:17 (HCSB): In this, love is perfected with us so that we may have confidence in

the day of judgment; for we are as He is in this world.

 

Dwmoeller1: //;Your basic argument is sound (ie. the structure
of the argument means that IF the premises are true,
then the conclusion must be true). The problem is that
you haven't demonstrated that the key premise is true.//

I will not demonstrate that the key premise is true.
It is up to the Holy Spirit to convince you that
the key premise is true.

In 1969-1976 I was qualified in the state of Oklahoma to
teach logic to 15-year-olds. So I know logic.
So I say with authority: //I can not demonstrate that
the key premise is true. So I won't even try.

However, what the Bible says is clear.
All one has to do is read it.

Caveat: If the Holy Spirit leads you to be a
post-trib pre-mill futurist - then be the best post-trib
pre-mill futurist you can be.
For 53 years I've been a pretrib pre-mill futurist
and I suspect I'll either die a pretrib pre-mill futurist
or get raptured in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
a pretrib pre-mill futurist. (BTW, even a-mills & preterists will get
to go when the Lord comes.)