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Pre- Tribulation or Post-Tribulation???

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
post-trib, pre-mill, Raptured-up-to-heaven with Christ at the 2nd coming.

Like it says in Matt 24.

Quote:
The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end


(But of course "that" would be the Bible)
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Revmitchell said:
Pre-trib isnt just about escaping wrath but it is also about the end of the church age. The trib period being the seventieth week for the Jews. The church has no part in this week.

We have to be careful in aplying sections of Matthew to the church. So much of it only has application for the Jews. Especially Matt 24. Then again I am a dispensationalist.

Luckily for us - it is really really "easy" to see that the Matt 24 prophecy goes wayyy past the cross! AND it includes the coming of Christ where aLL tribes of the earth see and are in anguish!
 

J. Jump

New Member
post-trib, pre-mill, Raptured-up-to-heaven with Christ at the 2nd coming.

Like it says in Matt 24.

Quote:
The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end


(But of course "that" would be the Bible)


Bob do you get a cookie after you post this 50 times or something? You act like if you type it enough times you'll convince yourself it's true.

Just because you type something over and over doesn't make it so.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Many times in these discussions the BIBLE sits there like an "elephant in the living room" that many here will try to avoid.

Kinda fun to watch you do it.
 

Marcia

Active Member
TaliOrlando said:
Hello!!!! I understand where you are coming from both remember there is power in the tongue.

Book of James!!!! Chapter 3

Taming the Tongue
1Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
3When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
7All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

9With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. 10Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11Can both fresh water and salt[a] water flow from the same spring? 12My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.


An example of how words can bring forth death and destruction can be found in Mark 11:13-14,20:
"And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he (Jesus) came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet. And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it. And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree dried up from the roots."
On the other hand, an example of words bringing forth life can be found in John 11:43-44:
"And when he thus had spoken, he (Jesus) cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go."
We can see from these two examples just how powerful our words can be. It is our privilege and responsibility as Christians to speak forth positive life-giving words in a world immersed in negativity. After all Proverbs 12:25 says that "Heaviness in the heart of man maketh it stoop: but a good word maketh it glad." and "pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones" (Proverbs 16:24).

None of this supports the Word Faith teachings that men have a magical power with their thoughts or tongues.

There is a difference between the impact of our words and saying our words can alter reality by a special power or force.

I know this is off-topic, but I can't not respond to anything supporting the false teachings of Word Faith.
 

Marcia

Active Member
LeBuick said:
Pre-Trib!

Stephen said he is standing...

[55] But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
[56] And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

On the other hand, Hebrews says Jesus sat down :smilewinkgrin:
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1.3

but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
Heb 10.12

fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12.2

Of course, I think this is a picture of Jesus having finished his work on earth for the Father. :praise:
 

gekko

New Member
one question: where does the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel come into play? (and yes i know that two tribes i think are missing from the list)
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
gekko said:
one question: where does the 144,000 from the tribes of Israel come into play? (and yes i know that two tribes i think are missing from the list)

Rev 7 they are those who are sealed at the time of the end -- just before probation closes for all mankind.

Once the window of probation closes - then you get the Rev 16 plagues because as Rev 15 shows -- Christ no longer ministers in the Heavenly Sanctuary between God and man. The UNIQUE role He has in Lev 16 as High Priest in the Atonement process will have ended.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Crusader

New Member
I was originally pre-trib, and stayed so for over a decade. Several months ago I was introduced to the preterist viewpoint. I began an in-depth study of Biblical eschatological prophecy to assess the validity of the preterist position. Something unexpected happened.

I came to reject the preterist position, but after re-reading all the prophecies of both the OT and NT I found myself questioning my own pre-trib position.

The result?
I now believe the Pre-Millennial Post-Tribulation Rapture View.

If you're a futurist, no matter which Rapture view you hold, I think you should hope for a pre-trib and plan for a post-trib.
 

BD17

New Member
Jim1999 said:
Amil here..What tribulation? Where is a rapture? Maybe a rupture!

Thankfully my Jesus is on the throne right now, at the right hand of the Father, reigning over the universe...........and one day I will join Him in the victory.

Cheers,

Jim

Amil here too.
 

J. Jump

New Member
Crusader said:
I now believe the Pre-Millennial Post-Tribulation Rapture View.

So how do you deal with the typology that Enoch was taken up before Noah, which is a typology of a remenant of Israel being saved through the tribulation?
 

Crusader

New Member
J. Jump said:
So how do you deal with the typology that Enoch was taken up before Noah, which is a typology of a remenant of Israel being saved through the tribulation?
The translation account of Enoch can be used to show that God does rapture believers, but is no indication as to when.
 

J. Jump

New Member
The translation account of Enoch can be used to show that God does rapture believers, but is no indication as to when.

Sure it is. That is why it came before Noah. These historical happenings were not just coincidences. God uses these historical events to teach us spiritual truth. Enoch came after the death and blood of the sacrifice, but was removed from the earth before the flood.

Enoch is a picture of the church which came about only after the death and shed blood of The Sacrifice, and the church will be removed before the tribulation, in which a remnant of Israel will be saved through.
 

Crusader

New Member
The Bible doesn't state Enoch was removed from the earth to escape the flood to come. It simply says he walked with God and was taken. You read into the account a timeframe that you want to see.
 

J. Jump

New Member
The Bible doesn't state Enoch was removed from the earth to escape the flood to come. It simply says he walked with God and was taken. You read into the account a timeframe that you want to see.

I'm not saying the Bible states that he was removed to escape the flood to come, but the Bible uses historical realities to teach us spiritual truth. Do you think that it is mere coincidence that the events happened in the pattern that they happened in?

God is not a God of coincidences. We have that pattern to teach us. And it teaches us that the church will be removed prior to the tribulation.

You don't have to believe it if you don't want to, but it's awfully hard to deny.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Crusader said:
The Bible doesn't state Enoch was removed from the earth to escape the flood to come. It simply says he walked with God and was taken. You read into the account a timeframe that you want to see.

Read Heb 11 - God took Enoch and he did not die.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
J. Jump said:
So how do you deal with the typology that Enoch was taken up before Noah, which is a typology of a remenant of Israel being saved through the tribulation?

Enoch was taken, and Elijah was taken. Neither of these incidents "Claim" that the people of God will always be snapped up before running into tribulation. IF They did then God owes the Christians of the dark ages a HUGE appology!

Basically the model would have already failed in the dark ages AND AGAIN it would have failed in the early Christian persecution by pagan Roma even BEFORE the dark ages.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Crusader said:
I was originally pre-trib, and stayed so for over a decade. Several months ago I was introduced to the preterist viewpoint. I began an in-depth study of Biblical eschatological prophecy to assess the validity of the preterist position. Something unexpected happened.

I came to reject the preterist position, but after re-reading all the prophecies of both the OT and NT I found myself questioning my own pre-trib position.

The result?
I now believe the Pre-Millennial Post-Tribulation Rapture View.

If you're a futurist, no matter which Rapture view you hold, I think you should hope for a pre-trib and plan for a post-trib.

Post trib -

Pre-millennial --

Absolutely Biblical - spot on!

But you need to STAY with the view of John 14 that the Pre and mid trib guys have! Just because you DO get to post-trib and you do get to the truth of pre-mill does not mean you have to give up the truth you already had on John 14 and 1Thess 4 where we are raptured UP to be with Christ in heaven at the Rev 19 fulfillment of the John 14 promise that HE will "Come again" and "RECEIVE you TO Myself" after having GONE to His Father's house to "prepare a place for us" -- THERE!
 

J. Jump

New Member
Neither of these incidents "Claim" that the people of God will always be snapped up before running into tribulation.
Why do you always read into my statements what you want to read? That's not what I said, and your statement isn't even close to what I said.

God doesn't claim to yank His children out of hard times, but promises to go through it with them.

However, when you start talking about THE tribulation then you are talking about a differen dispensational subject.

When THE tribulation comes God will be finished dealing with the one new man in Christ in man's day and the church will be removed.

The reason being is that God is turning His attention back to His adulterous wife - Israel.

The tribulation is a final seven-year period finishing off the dispensation of Israel. It has nothing to do with the church, so there is no point in the church being here for it.

Basically the model would have already failed in the dark ages AND AGAIN it would have failed in the early Christian persecution by pagan Roma even BEFORE the dark ages.

It's not a model to live by, it's a pattern based on God's timing in His dealings with the church. No one said we should model our lives by this.

THE tribulation has not come yet, so this teaching hasn't even had a chance to pass or fail yet.
 

J. Jump

New Member
For those of you that believe in the post-tribulational rapture, what is the Biblical purpose for the church going through the tribulation?

God will use the tribulation to turn Israel back to Himself, but what is the purpose of the church going through the tribulation while God's attention is on Israel?
 
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