Pre-tribulation rapture

[ByGracethroughFaith]

1) There is no racial discrimination by God between jews and Gentiles, Jews and Greeks etc.

God will do what He wants with whomsoever He chooses. He chooses ‘of the tribe of Juda….of the tribe of Reuben…of the tribe of Gad… etc.’, you are going to have to take that up with Him.

2) The Wrath of God always directs toward the unbelievers, as you mentioned in Romans 1.
However, as I said, the Great Tribulation is not the Wrath of God against the Believers. As we read Re 12, the Dragon is expelled from the heaven and he persecutes the woman ( Re 12:13), and therefore the trouble starts from there ! It is not the Wrath of God. You misunderstood quite a lot, as many do.

The wrath of God begins in Rev 6. The woman is the harlot church, and the trouble has started much before chapter 12. What the Dragon does is executes the wrath of the Devil, not the wrath of God. However the wrath of God continues from the start of the seven years to the finish with ever increasing severity.

3) By what does God discriminate for the Partial Rapture?
He doesn't discriminate the people, but their faith discriminates themselves and results in very different status. Remember Elijah. There were 7,000 believers who never knelt down to Baal, preserved by God. They were true believers. However, did they enjoy the Rapture as Elijah did? Nope! Only Elijah who fought the Idolatry was raptured.

If that is the criteria, then Elisha would have also been raptured, having a double portion of the spirit of Elijah. But that’s not the case. Elijah was raptured early so he can come back early, he will be one of the two witnesses.

God accepts the people based on their Faith. Read Re 12:11 ( they loved not their lives unto the death) and compare the man in 1 Cor 5 ( especially v 5) who committed the fornication. Do you think there is no Christian believer( who is truly born again) who commits such fornication even today? In your logic, even such carnal believers ( as mentioned in 1 Cor 2:14-3:3) will be raptured while the new believers who love not their lives unto death, enduring the extremely painful persecution should continue to suffer the persecution by the Anti-Christ, right?

Maybe if you read this it will explain my point of view on the matter.
http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/reproof.htm

4) In your theory, the new believers are the Second Class believers because they were saved during the Tribulation, while the fornicators, adulterous believers will be raptured because they are saved always once they have been saved, right?

See above.

But, you must carefully notice that the believers have the extremely strong faith, if you read various chapters of 7, 12, 13-17.

It’s not particularly strong faith, it just happens to be real faith. If you read Foxes book of Martyrs again, you will see many who have what appears to be relatively weak faith, have it strengthened just when the flames were licking up on them.

They were arrayed in white robes, washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb ( 7:14). Are they new believers saved during the short period?

It is a prophecy of the believers saved out of the whole 7 year period.

Whyd doesn't God use such miraculous method to save billions of people in a short time?

He does what He wants, when He wants, and how He wants, again you’d best take that up with Him.

5) If you read ch 12, it tells you the birth and the rapture of Jesus Christ
( v 5), then you see the coming of Jesus Christ in ch 19. Also, ch 12 explains the total period of 2000 years since the birth of Son of God thru the disappearance of the Woman, until the Remnants of the woman are challenged by the Dragon who have the testimony of Jesus. Where is the verse describing the biggest event of the Church history, the Rapture of the whole church ?
Where would you point out the verses of describing the Rapture of the Church ? Revelation describes the whole history after the ascension of Jesus(ch 12) until His second coming ( ch 19). Where is the Rapture?

First of all, Christ was not raptured, He ascended.

Christ was not birthed out of the church, for that passage to be only about Christ, the woman must only be literal Israel (the descendents of Jacob), if the woman who is persecuted is only literal Israel, then literal Israel is specifically dealt with in the tribulation. If you believe that, how then can’t you believe that God isn’t finished with the Jew?

That passage is also symbolic of the visible church/true church, and tells you that the true church was caught up unto God. Verse 5 tells of the rapture of the true church (those really saved).

6) When does the Second coming of the Holys Spirit take place, after the Rapture of the Church? We know the Pentecost, then when would be the Second Pentecost so that hundreds of millions of new believers may be saved by the EXPLOSIVE preaching? Paul and so many preachers exerted their lives to preach the Gospel but they may have gained only a few thousand if they had been given only 7 years. Were they stupid and lazy because the End time preachers may save millions of people in a minute?
After Jesus departed this world, disciples and many believers were still remaining, and they preached the Gospel after receiving the Holy Spirit. Who are going to remain on this world after the Rapture so that they may start the Re-evangelization after receiving the Holy Spirit?
The Rapture of the whole church means the departure of the Holy Spirit.
If the Holy Spirit has to come again, then why should He depart?
If the Holy Spirit remains on the Earth, then how will He start the work? Does Holy Spirit find the Believers for Himself without any believers on this Earth? Are people saved while they watch TV or watching the Football game?

The Holy Spirit, having the qualification of omnipresence, doesn’t actually leave. The Christians indwelt by the Holy Spirit leave, and with them leaving God no longer has any need to hold back His wrath.

Man-centered theology always leaves these type of questions. Preachers don’t save people, God saves people.

7)As for Isaiah 57:1-, I would add some more explanation.
The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart, merciful men are taken away, 2 none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come, He shall enter into peace; they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.

In general, this verse shows the mercy of God protecting the Believers, but it doesn't tell us the Rapture, but their rest in the bed, each one walking in the uprightness.

I just want you to realize that I quoted that verse in defense of the martyrs not being under the wrath of God. It was to show that their dying was not under wrath, but under mercy. It has nothing to do with the rapture.

I personally prayed God to help me understand the Revelation, then He showed me ch 12 as the starting point.

I am glad you did that, but you appear to be inferring that God gave you some type of infallible revelation? You do realize that Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mohammed and others have claimed the same thing.

The Rapture may be limited to 144K but it is not necessarily 144,000, but they are the 2 witnesses which are essential for the Truth as the 2 wtinesses are enough for the Truth. Zech 4:14 - These are the 2 anointed ones who stand by the Lord on the whole Earth.
In other words, 2 witnesses are the True and Faithful Believers on the whole Earth, standing by the Lord.
They will be raptured ( Re 11:11-13), and the Enemies will observe it, and the Remnants will give glory to God.
Thereafter there will be big disasters like Earthquakes, 7,000( perfect number) were killed, then the Third woe follows.
2 witnesses were protected from the Woe by God, but even the Remnants will be protected by the grace of God. So, the believers will be protected from the Wrath of God anyway.

I have heard of the numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 40, 1000, 10,000 being symbolic, but I have yet to hear of the number 2 being symbolic. In every instance of the Bible where the word ‘two’ occurs, I have always just taken it to mean ‘two’. Then you try to combine it with the 144,000, I am really not sure where you are coming up with all this.

The two witnesses are either Enoch and Elijah, or possibly Moses and Elijah, but there are just TWO of them.

You'd better read the Bible more…

Now that's good advice

BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

I am glad you did that, but you appear to be inferring that God gave you some type of infallible revelation? You do realize that Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mohammed and others have claimed the same thing.

Did they interpret the Bible? Ellen White may have claimed so, but her prophesy was proven to be false. I am talking about specifically on the Re 12, and God showed me Re 12 as the starting point to correct the misunderstandings.

I have heard of the numbers 3, 4, 6, 7, 10, 12, 40, 1000, 10,000 being symbolic, but I have yet to hear of the number 2 being symbolic. In every instance of the Bible where the word ‘two’ occurs, I have always just taken it to mean ‘two’. Then you try to combine it with the 144,000, I am really not sure where you are coming up with all this.

You sound like someone who never read thru the Bible yet:

Deut 17
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deut 19 : 15 One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. 18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

Read Zech 4 ! You repeat the argument without reading Zech 4!

The two witnesses are either Enoch and Elijah, or possibly Moses and Elijah, but there are just TWO of them.

Now that's good advice

BGTF

You are repeating what you read from the writings by PTR claimers, which is a typical rhetoric, saying there will be 2 prophets at the endtimes.
If you believe that the whole church will be raptured, will the 2 prophets be left out? Will they come from the heaven by flying? Then, you may be believing in UFO ! If they will be left out, where are they now? Who are they? I already urged you to read thru Zecharia 4, which tells exactly 2 Candlesticks, 2 Olive Trees, 2 anointed. Please read it thru, then you will find them exactly the same as Rev 11.

Zech 4:12And I answered again, and said unto him, What [be these] two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden [oil] out of themselves?
Zec 4:13And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these [be]? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14Then said he, These [are] the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth

(www.crosswalk.com)


Many false prophets came into this world claiming that they are 2 witnesses in Revelation. There are huge deceptions there.

 

[Eliyahu]

BGTF,

You are very much far away from this portion of Truth, though you are very good in many other aspects of Truth. What a contrast there !
Again, you are very much accurate about the Salvation, and in pointing out the problems of this generations etc. I have no doubt about your salvation at all. I admit that you are a true believer. However, the total layout about the Eschatology is far away from the Truth, which is a big deception in this era where many true believers are trapped into.

Please tolerate my harsh scoff a little further.

1) KJV Re 9 and 16
Re 9:
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts
Re 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.


2) PTRV ( Pre-Tribulation Rapture Version)


Re 9:
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues millions of them repented of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Indeed repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts

Re 16
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed( Praised) the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented their deeds.

That's how millions, millions of new Believers came out of the Tribulation.

1) Millions of Jews repented and accepted the Gospel without preachers miraculously after the Rapture of the whole church ! They didn't need the Preacher, nor the foolisheness of preaching, because they were so much genius. They proved Romans 10:14 was wrong!

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

They proved 1 Cor 1:21 was wrong!
[FONT=&#48148]The Gospel is preached thru the foolishness of preaching ( 1 Cor 1:21),[/FONT]

After the rapture of the whole church, nobody was left to preach the Gospel, but Jews were born again by the Holy spirit, without any preachers.

[FONT=&#48148]2) They proved Apostle Paul was stupid, and God Repented what He did in the past, because Jews were miraculously converted, and preached the Gospel to millions, millions of Gentiles depite the disasters and the Tribulation ![/FONT]


Millions of Jews repented first, then they preached the Gospel to the gentiles thru Internet, thru TV despite the persecution by the Beast and by the Harlot. They deserve the immediate Rapture again because the Wrath of God doesn't fall upon the Believers. There should be another Rapture before the coming of Jesus. Are they just the second class believers?

 

[Eliyahu]

BGTF revealed another misunderstanding about Re 6 and 12.

Re 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I already told that ch 6 is the introductory overview and ch 12 is more concrete Revelation of materializing the prophesy.

Re 6 already portrays the End times of the world.

Re 12 shows this:

1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


Re 19
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.


1) Is the man-child in Re 12 different from the Lord Jesus in Re 19?
If you don't identify the same, you are blind spiritually!

2) Did the church generate Son of God? or Did Israel give birth to Son of God?

Who has begotten Son of God?
Heb 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

Mt 1:
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

If you know the Greek text, you will find this translation is insufficient.

" the one in her is begotten by the Holy Spirit" is correct translation, because the same word : gennao" is used for " beget, begot, begotten"

Jesus was born ( not conceived by fertilization with the ovum of Mary, but born as a complete Human Embryo already before He came out of Mary)

So, if you interpret the Woman in Re 12, you will find no contradiction there.
The woman carried the believers and was protected in the wilderness for 1260 days which was the period of Prophesy by Jesus, the same period will be worked out by the Holy Spirit, and it represent the period from the Birth of Christ until the Rapture of the Church embraced by the Woman.

Again, you can find that the Revelation is not written in the order of Time Sequence, because Re 6 shows us the end times, Re 12 shows the Birth of Jesus, Re 11 talks about the Crucifixion of Jesus ( Re 11:8-11)

You have no idea about the general overview of the Revelation. sorry to tell you.
You are like saying Jesus of Gospel Mark is the immitation Jesus, while only Jesus in Gospel JOhn is the genuine.

BTW, the fake Christians are mentioned in Re 11:1-2

John was asked to measure " Temple of God" " Altar" "Worshippers therein"
Temple of God may be 144,000 equivalent to the Judges in 20:4
Altar means the Martyrs ( Re 6:9) equivalent to the beheaded in 20:4
True Believers who refuse the Idolatry are the worshippers therein.

Then the court outside the temple is given to the Heathen Unbelievers ( 11:2) They look like a part of the temple, but they are not believers but just the fake believers. They will form a part of the Unbelievers persecuting the Believers, and these will tread down the Holy City for 42 months. ( which part of 7 years, the first 3 and a half years or the latter part of 7 years? think about it!)

Do you read this?

Re 20

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and the ones which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. ( I added the ones, refer to other translations) 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Live again is the expression for the Resurrection ( Re 2:8)

So, only 3 categories will participate in New Millennium, The believers who are given the Judgment, Martyrs, Believers who rejected the Beast. How about the common believers who lived and died peacefully in 17c?

So, you can find the similarity between Re 11:1-2 and Re 20:4-5.

Re 11:1-2 doesn't belong to Re 11, but to Re 10. The chaptering in 16 century wasn't done accurately on this part.
Then you will find Re 10, Re 11, Re 12 are exactly same in describing the 2000 years period, as Gospel Mt, Mk, Lk are the same for Jesus earthly ministry.

Where are we living now in Revelation. You can find several spots which indicate our times. If you know them, show me!

 

[peterotto]

It doesn't really matter what I support, it's going to happen with or without my support.
BGTF

Can you be honest with us? Tell us when you feel when this will take place.
I am not looking for exact dates, but a range. Lets say, sometime before 2018. (1948 plus 70 years). Or maybe you feel it will happen "in our lifetime". Please exlain.

Thank you

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Can you be honest with us? Tell us when you feel when this will take place.
I am not looking for exact dates, but a range. Lets say, sometime before 2018. (1948 plus 70 years). Or maybe you feel it will happen "in our lifetime". Please exlain.

Thank you

PO, I understand that you are only baiting me to name a date, but even so, I will do what I can to answer.

I expect it to happen each day, and when it doesn't happen today, I wake up expecting it to happen tomorrow.

Try as I might though, I can't tell you a date, the fact is that no one can. I have some personal suppositions that I don't allow out of my thoughts, simply because they are just that, personal suppositions. What I can tell you is that at present there is no reason that it can't be tonight.

Here's what I know:

1) We are approx 6013 years since creation plus or minus 25 years or so.
2) The seventh thousand of years is to be the millennial reign of Christ on earth.
3) God is not willing that any should perish so He is being plenty patient. So much so, that by my calculation we are in 'overtime'. How long overtime will last is anybody's guess.
4) The 70 years from 1948 is what many are currently expecting to be some kind of outer limit.
5) Political unstability looks to be paving the way for another world war by 2010.
6) The ramifications of the world peak of oil production, which have been described as being apocalyptic by many, are scheduled to get very severe within 3-4 years.
7) The length of the church periods started at about 100 years for Ephesus, and gradually increased until Thyatira, then started shrinking again until Laodicea. The Philadelphian period was approx 200 years long, mirroring Smyrna. I am expecting Laodicea to mirror Ephesus to a certain extent. I believe we turned over into the Laodicean period somewhere around 1900.
8) The stage of prophetic events appears to be perfectly set for those things which are prophecied to happen during the tribulation period.

There are other indicators to the nearness as well, but I left them out for brevity sake. All we need to know is that the event is fixed, and that the date will remain uncertain until it happens.


BGTF

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliyahu
I personally prayed God to help me understand the Revelation, then He showed me ch 12 as the starting point.

BGTF
I am glad you did that, but you appear to be inferring that God gave you some type of infallible revelation? You do realize that Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell, Mohammed and others have claimed the same thing.

In Both NT and OT there were many false prophets. The Bible answer was always to "TEST the prophets" it's solution was never "ignore all prophets".

And so today - we test them as the Bible instructs and we also follow the teaching of 1Cor 12 through 14.

Many people today "claim" to have some kind of insight from God - and many do -- but that alone does not make them a prophet.

As John 16 claims for ALL Christians "the Spirit of truth will GUIDE you into all truth".

Hence - we are not Catholics.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Can you be honest with us? Tell us when you feel when this will take place.
I am not looking for exact dates, but a range. Lets say, sometime before 2018. (1948 plus 70 years). Or maybe you feel it will happen "in our lifetime". Please exlain.

Thank you

2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
The 50 million or so saints slaughtere in the many-centuries long dark ages persecution is what is described in Matt 24 prior to the coming of Christ. "The Great Tribulation".

The seven last plagues in Rev 16 are not part of that and do not last for "many centuries".

Matt 24 shows that this happens AFTER the great tribulation ends. The many centuries event of the dark ages has ended.

BGTF
Bob
You are going back and forth between preterist and futurist, are you partial preterist?

Neither one --

"Historicist"

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Trying to rework Matt 24 or Rev 12 into a first century prediction that "the Christian church will not be perscuted"
would have proven to be false in the dark ages alone. Let alone pagan Rome's persecution of the saints.

BGTF
No one said anything about Christians not being persecuted, but only that they will not bear the wrath of God. Read Foxes Book of Martyrs again, and tell me if you believe they experienced the wrath of God

No they did not.

The Tribulation "the GREAT Tribulation" in Matt 24 is not about the wrath of God.

TRIBULATION

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For [b]then there will be a great tribulation[/b], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Eliyahu

We can do all the points again, but let's settle on this one for now.

1) Is the man-child in Re 12 different from the Lord Jesus in Re 19?
If you don't identify the same, you are blind spiritually!

2) Did the church generate Son of God? or Did Israel give birth to Son of God?

Israel gave birth to the Son of God.

You remember that I did tell you that Rev 12:5 referred to BOTH the ascension of Christ, AND the rapture of believers. In Rev 19 Christ rules with the 'rod of iron' and whereas Rev 2:27 refers to a believer ruling with a 'rod of iron'.

Rev 2:26-28 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron ; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star.

...You sound like someone who never read thru the Bible yet:

...Please tolerate my harsh scoff a little further.

...You have no idea about the general overview of the Revelation. sorry to tell you.

I hope you don't speak in this manner to all your proselytes. I am figuring if you were really sorry, you probably wouldn't tell me, or at the very least, you would say it in a more polite manner.

It's a good thing for you that I am patient.


BGTF

 

[webdog]

According to the sequence given in Matt 24 there is no pretrib rapture.

According to the many centuries of torture and slaughter of the saints in the dark ages - it is too late to claim that the great tribulation for the church in this 2000 years of history since Christ left - did not happen.

1 and 2 Thessalonians show there is a pre trib rapture.

FWIW...there are more martyrs for their faith today, than at any point in history. The "dark ages" will be nothing compared to the the last 3.5 years of the great tribulation.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu
We can do all the points again, but let's settle on this one for now.
Israel gave birth to the Son of God.

Jesus, the Son of God is the Creator of Israel, and He was before Abraham was ( Jn 8:56-58). Moreover, Israel themselves have been rebellious after the ascension of Jesus. How could they be protected in the wilderness? By Holocaust or by Crusade?

Were Isrelites washed by His Blood?
Re 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

The Remnants of Her seed are these:

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Israel killed Jesus, and persecuted the Believers. How could you say her offspring keep the commandments of Jesus?

You remember that I did tell you that Rev 12:5 referred to BOTH the ascension of Christ, AND the rapture of believers. In Rev 19 Christ rules with the 'rod of iron' and whereas Rev 2:27 refers to a believer ruling with a 'rod of iron'.

Rev 2:26-28 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron ; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28 And I will give him the morning star.

1. You are admitting that Revelation is not written in time sequence as I mentioned Re 6 showed the end of the world, heavens rolling away, the great judgment, then Re 12 shows the Ascension of Jesus.

2. It is the first time that I hear that 12:5 means the Rapture of Jesus together with the Believers.
In the same chapter you can read the Believers keeping faith unto death ( v 11), then there will be the Remnants of her seed keeping the commandments of Jesus. So, you must be able to find out the contradiction immediately there. If there were total Rapture, how did the new believers start to believe? Where is the saying that the Jews accepted the Truth?
Your theory is self-contradictory.

I hope you don't speak in this manner to all your proselytes. I am figuring if you were really sorry, you probably wouldn't tell me, or at the very least, you would say it in a more polite manner.

It's a good thing for you that I am patient.

BGTF

BGTF, please remember this. You are far away from the truth while you boast about your theory which has no biblical grounds, which I still believe is a wicked deception by Satan. Satan is very much dilligent while the Believers are lazy with the wrong idea of PTR. Please remember God is patient to you too.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't deny that the persecution of Christians continues - just not in the realm of the Roman empire as it was going on in the Dark Ages.

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the rapture does not happen until AFTER the man-of-sin is revealed.

IF the "Tribulation" vs of Matt 24 were to be spun around to mean "no tribulation for the church" then the scripture is already broken due to the dark ages AND to the present persecution in Asian and Arab countries.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Tribulation "the GREAT Tribulation" in Matt 24 is not about the wrath of God.

TRIBULATION

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For [b]then there will be a great tribulation[/b], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Jesus, the Son of God is the Creator of Israel, and He was before Abraham was ( Jn 8:56-58). Moreover, Israel themselves have been rebellious after the ascension of Jesus. How could they be protected in the wilderness? By Holocaust or by Crusade?

Of course Christ was before Israel, and yet He was born of Israel through the line of David. This is known as the mystery of the incarnation.

The Remnants of Her seed are these:

17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Israel killed Jesus, and persecuted the Believers. How could you say her offspring keep the commandments of Jesus?

Since the woman refers BOTH to Israel, AND the visible church, ‘the rest of her offspring’ are those who are actually saved during the tribulation period.

David belongs to the true church AND to Israel. During the tribulation, there will be newly saved Jews who belong to the offspring, and there will be some that don't. Likewise, there will also be newly saved Gentiles who belong to the offspring and there will be others that don't

The visible church is the church corporate, or every person and institution today that professes to be Christian. And yet not everyone who professes to be a Christian actually is one. The true church is comprised of those who actually are saved. During the tribulation period, there will still be those who are pretending, and those who are real, the woman includes the pretenders, and the offspring are those who are real.

BGTF, please remember this. You are far away from the truth while you boast about your theory which has no biblical grounds, which I still believe is a wicked deception by Satan. Satan is very much dilligent while the Believers are lazy with the wrong idea of PTR.

Eliyahu
People might be inclined to hear what you are saying, but they can’t hear it when HOW you are saying it speaks so much louder.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

Why is PTR theory wrong?
PTR ( Pre-Tribulation Rapture) is believed by so many Believers. Most of PTR claimers whom I have met so far are very good Christian believers and famous Christian writers such as Erich Sauer, JN Darby, Louis Talbot, William MacDonald, and so one ( I think even Dr. Dehaan claimed it too).
I don't know where they got such idea from, but often they start from the misunderstanding that the Believers are protected from the Wrath of God.
Indeed, all the believers are protected from the Wrath of God.
They do not know how to distinguish between the Wrath of God and the Persecution by the Enemies, here start the problems.

If anyone should claim the PTR, they must explain clearly how the millions and millions of people became so much strong believers coming out of the Great Tribulation in Re 7:13-16, while people do not repent despite the disasters caused by the Wrath of God. ( Re 9:20- and 16:11)

Also, they brought the excuse that Jews preached the Gospel and they produced new believers among the gentiles. Where did they get this kind of story? If the whole church is raptured, Holy Spirit will not remain. How did the Holy Spirit start the new ministry? When the NT church started, there were believers already on the earth, and 120 people gathered in Jerusalem, and moreover more than 500 people who saw Jesus resurrection witnessed the Truth. After the Rapture of the NT church how would they start the new ministry without Preachers?
If the Holy Spirit would start the new ministry, why did God take all the believers up to heaven without leaving some of them to preach the Gospel to the new believers?

I have heard and read all the theories of PTR and found they are absolutely groundless, and they do not know how to interpret the Revelation.

 

[Eliyahu]

Since the woman refers BOTH to Israel, AND the visible church, ‘the rest of her offspring’ are those who are actually saved during the tribulation period.

David belongs to the true church AND to Israel. During the tribulation, there will be newly saved Jews who belong to the offspring, and there will be some that don't. Likewise, there will also be newly saved Gentiles who belong to the offspring and there will be others that don't

The visible church is the church corporate, or every person and institution today that professes to be Christian. And yet not everyone who professes to be a Christian actually is one. The true church is comprised of those who actually are saved. During the tribulation period, there will still be those who are pretending, and those who are real, the woman includes the pretenders, and the offspring are those who are real.

BGTF, your theory is evolving. Read your post #21:


Christ was not birthed out of the church, for that passage to be only about Christ, the woman must only be literal Israel (the descendents of Jacob), if the woman who is persecuted is only literal Israel, then literal Israel is specifically dealt with in the tribulation. If you believe that, how then can’t you believe that God isn’t finished with the Jew?

That passage is also symbolic of the visible church/true church, and tells you that the true church was caught up unto God. Verse 5 tells of the rapture of the true church (those really saved).


Your previous post #21 told that the church was caught up unto God. Now you are saying the Woman is the church.
Now you are saying the woman includes the Unbelievers. Do they keep the commandments of Jesus unto death?
YOur theory is in chaos, and you must work very hard to salvage your theory!


You may want to say that the woman was the OT church and the NT church which include the True believers in any era.
What are the common for both OT and NT churches? They were led by the Holy Spirit. But you cannot say that the church gave birth to Jesus Christ. You cannot say that Israel kept the commandments of Jesus throughout the ages. There will you be in dilemma.
If you say that the woman meant the Church, then you will find that the church continued to be proteced by God until the end-times, and she is persecuted by the Dragon for a time, times and a half time which means 3.5 times. In that case the chapter disproves PTR. The church will pass thru the Tribulation !
Your own interpretation disproves your theory.

If anyone interpret the Woman as Church, he or she is not far from the Truth, because Church is the Bride of Christ, embodiment of Temple where the Holy Spirit dwells.

You are now admitting that the child was born in ch 12. then the chapter writes about the end-times. Where do you find the Rapture there?

You are saying that the church was raptured at the time of AScension of Jesus. Are you real on this world? Are you left behind the Rapture? Because you are saying that the church was already raptured along with Jesus in Re 12:5!
I am doubting about your sanity again !

Most of the PTR claimers that I have met so far, do not have their own understanding about the Revelation. But they just parrot what they read from other people's writings. They have no idea about the general overview of Revelation.

 

[Eliyahu]

PTR Theory is really ridiculous which has deceived millions of Christian believers and so many great Christian believers are trapped in there too.
Therefore I would explain some of my interpretation of Revelation.

Re 6:
I already mentioned this chapter is the Introductory Overview of the 2000 years NT period until the end of the World.
v 2 explains the man on the white horse. Many people misunderstand that this man is Satan. But I would say he is Jesus Christ.
He conquered at the Cross, and continues to conquer the world for 2000 years, being crowned with Crown of Righteousness, Crown of Glory, taking the bow shooting the Arrows of Word of God.
He fights 3 other horse riders, on the Black Horse, Red Horse, Green Horse which represents the Power of Weapons, False Religion, Poverty etc.

Re 6 also portrays the end of the world, judgment of kings

Re 10 ( ch 10:1-ch 11:2)
A mighty angel was treading upon the sea and upon the earth ( 10:1)
He is mighty because Gospel preaching is so important and therefore God has assigned the job of preaching Gospel to the mighty angel. He is treading down the sea where the Beast is coming up from, and the earth where another Beast is coming up from.
Then he gave the little book to John. It was sweet in the moth, but bitter in the belly, which means that the Words of God is sweet to hear and to accept, but bitter when we practice and perform the commandments.
Then Gentiles tread down the Holy City for 42 months. 42 months means 3 and a half year.
11:1 is very similar to 20:4. Temple of God, Altar, Worshippers therein are to be measured, which may mean 144,000, Martyrs, True believers are to be measured for the next Millennium, while the outer court( Fake Christians) are delievered to gentiles. Fake Christians are dealt with the same as heathen unbelievers.

Re 11:3-
2 Candlesticks, 2 Olive Trees, 2 Witnesses are the same as Zech 4.
They are not any specific persons, but all the True believers on this earth are 2 Witnesses. They finish their ministry and may be almost killed. They are revived after 3.5 days, and raptured by the callings of God.
Remnants will glorify God. I believe 3.5 days mean 3.5 years.

Re 12
Jesus was born, but ascended unto God, then woman had to flee.
Woman was protected by God for 1260 days ( which I believe is 1260 days). After the Dragon was expelled from Heaven, the dragon persecuted Woman for 3.5 times ( a time, times, half time). Remnants of the woman was ready tp fight Devil.

All 3 chapters explain 3.5 years, 3.5 times. 3.5 days. Ch 12 mentions ascension of Jesus, and Rapture of the Church people. All 3 chapters are talking about the same situation for 2000 years. ch 11, 12 talk about the 3 and a half years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

the LORD told Abram (later Abraham):
Genesis 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):

And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
and curse him, that curseth thee:
and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed.

I claim this promise by saying:

May the G-d of Abraham, G-d of the Jews:
please bless the nation Yisrael both in
the Land and throughout the World
in the dispersion, as it
enters the Sabbatical Year: 5768.
(this start at sundown in Jerusalem
on our 9-month/12th day/2007CE
and so will the Rosh Hashanna celebration.)

I'm going to get a blessing from God!
Say AMEN & you can have one also.

(side note to those who believe a
6,000 year period will be followed by
the 1,000 year Messanic Kingdom:
we only got 6,000 - 5,768 = 232 years
to go! )

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Your previous post #21 told that the church was caught up unto God. Now you are saying the Woman is the church.
Now you are saying the woman includes the Unbelievers. Do they keep the commandments of Jesus unto death?
YOur theory is in chaos, and you must work very hard to salvage your theory!

No chaos here friend, what I said was that the True Church is caught up to God, and the rest of the Visible Church is not.

The determination of the difference between the two is very important, until this point is settled we can not move on. Before I will respond again, I will await you telling me that you have read this link in its entirety, and know what the True Church is.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fund60.htm


BGTF