Pre-tribulation rapture

[BobRyan]

peterotto:
//Personally, I like Scripture to interpret Scripture.//

Amen, Brother Peterotto -- Preach it! :thumbs:

I'm a retired Software Engineer.

Here is a pretribulatin rapture interpretation
of Matthew 24

Actually if we are going to let Matt 24 define the sequence for us - then it is a post-trib rapture.

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.


Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.[/B]


Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.



Matt 24
15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.


Where was “the holy place” in the days of Christ – was it outside of the city in the burial grounds?

Jer 31
38 ""Behold, days are coming,'' declares the LORD, ""when the city will be rebuilt for the LORD from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate.
39 ""The measuring line will go out farther straight ahead to the hill Gareb; then it will turn to Goah.
40 ""And [b]the whole valley of the dead bodies and of the ashes, and all the fields as far as the brook Kidron, to the corner of the Horse Gate toward the east, shall be holy to the LORD;[/b] it will not be plucked up or overthrown anymore forever.''



Matt 24
21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

The persecution of Christians by the Pagan Roman empire - and then persecution of Christians by the Holy Roman Empire - "The Dark Ages" - represents centuries of killing Christians - unprecidented in extent and length of time - in all of history.

 

[BobRyan]

The time line according to Matthew 24

1. church age continues <== you are here! Matthew 24:4-15

2. Tribulation time Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event Matthew 24:29-30)

4. rapture/resurrection event Matthew 24:31-44, Rev 20:4-5

5. Millennium - Rev 20:5-end

Matt 24:
23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ,' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.
26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the [/b]lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.


The visibility of cloud-to-could lightning - from one end of heaven to the other - is the "comparison" made with the 2nd coming.

The coming is in the clouds - just as the lightning and just as the "signs".



Matt 24:
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason the Pre-trib Rapture (PTR) is true is clear.

#1. In 1Thess 4 where the saints the "Dead
in Christ RISE FIRST" and Rev 20 clearly shows
(v.4 that this happens as part of the
"FIRST resurrection" (this comes in the Bible right
AFTER the Rev 19 event of the appearing of Christ
- ain't that profound, 20 is AFTER 19)

John points us to the PROMISE of Christ's coming for His saints in John 14's famous promise to the Saints and then SHOWS this happening in Revelation. J

that makes the PTR doctrine possible.

Actually that is precisely why the PTR is impossible. Rev 19 is the post-trib appearing of Christ and AFTER that we see the "FIRST resurrection" where the "dead in christ rise FIRST" accordng to Paul in 1thess 4.

John is focused on this main event for the saints since he is the one that gives us the focal point promise for the church on that FIRST resurrection in John 14:1-4 "IF I go away I will come again and RECEIVE you unto Myself".



There is just no way to get around these
two key facts that make the PTR totally impossible - and
Biblical. These truths expanded will be noted soon,
as well as other proofs.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

But brother Eliyahu, you see it as arrogance, i see it as confidence in what he believes besides the point if he is right or wrong.

If you feel strongly he is wrong then the only way to convince him or others is taught to us by God's word. Calling him arrogant is not representing meekness, but rather comes accross as though you are trying to personally cut him down that his dcotrine might appear less worthy.

I say do as the word tells us in 2 Tim 2:24-25 and let the doctrine stand or fall on it's own merits. Just my two cents, i hope I have not offended you by chiming in.

We are brothers in Christ and love should trump any quarrels we should have over doctrines. Build each other up even when you are attempting to tear down the "positional view". In the very end the truth will stand perfect as truth and the only thing we will have is what love we have built between each other.......forever and ever!

God Bless! :thumbs:

Eliyahu

Nothing you say can ever bother me for my sake, it only bothers me for your sake. I would much rather have vile things said to me, than for me to actually say them to someone else. There is too much accountability for that.

I also realize that you very much want to endure the tribulation, but try all that you can to convince me to stay with you, when the Lord comes for that meeting in the sky, I'm outta here!:wavey:
BGTF

Thanks to both of you, I will take your advice as the kind admonition from the true Brothers in the Lord.
I may need more spiritual training in the Lord so that I may express what I learned from the Lord in a better way.
When you will find yourselves in the Tribulation, my posts and interpretations will be remembered.

Here are some additional explanations.
The first 3 and a half years will be milder than the second 3 and a half years of 7 year tribulation.
After the 3 and a half year Tribulation, the Church will be raptured, and there will be Remnants of the Church ( Re 11:11-13, 12:17). The remnants believers are the Born Again believers but they were lukewarm before the Tribulation, thru the Tribulation, they will have their faith much more strengthened. The Word " Remnants" means they existed before the event, but left behind after the event.
If you are convinced about the PTR, you have to explain reasonably about

1) How millions, millions of people from all over the world came out of the Tribulation, overcoming the Beast and the Harlot when you read Re 7.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

2) How the new believers could be found despite the rebellious unbelief, during the persection, as we read Re 9:20, 16:11.
Re 9
20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: 21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Re 16
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Re 17
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

You can imagine the whole world will be rebellious against God, nobody will be able to preach the Gospel in the public paces, nor thru TV, nor by Radio, nor by News Papers. Nobody can buy and sell without the marks of the Beast.

How could the millions, millions of people become new Believers having the faith like this during the short period of 7 years?
Re 12
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are they all new believers during the short period?

3) The Beast makes a war with the saints in Re 13. If the Saints were already raptured, how could the Beast make the War with the Saints? Didn't they exist before ?

Re 13:
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world

Doesn't this mean that the Believers written in the Book of Life refuse the worshipping him ?
Are they new believers? then how could the Beast start the War when there was no believers on the Earth?

4) If you say that the people started to believe in Jesus after the Rapture of the whole church, and then millions, millions of people will accept Jesus as their Lord, washed by the Blood of Jesus, then this period must not be called Great Tribulation, but should be called " EXPLOSION OF GRACE" despite the persecution which never existed in the history before.
In that case, the Bible must have explained a) how the Holy Spirit re-assumed the ministry after the Rapture of the Church. 2) if it happened to Jews first, how the Jews accepted Jesus since they all the time rejected their Messiah, 3) if they preached the Gospel to the gentiles, then why were they not included in the group of Believers raptured before their conversion, because the logic behind the PTR was that the Believers are protected from the Wrath of God. Is it because they are the second class believers? But it doesn't seem so as we read Re 7:

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

5) Does this verse say that they are the new believers ? Those unbelievers repent and change their minds because of the persecutions by the Beast and accept the Lord?

Re 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Those are the Believers after the Rapture, but not the new believers but the Remnants after the Rapture, I believe.

6) Throughout the Revelation, there is no indication that the Jews are converted after the Rapture of the Church, or they preached the Gospel to the gentiles. But we read this simply.

Re 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

These are the believers during the Tribulation.

PTR is a huge deception which has trapped millions of True believers, I believe.

It starts from the misunderstanding in distinguishing between the Wrath of God and the Persecution by Enemies.

We must return to the Bible, and read Revelation thoroughly, and find that Revelation is also talking about the Cross ( 6:2, 11:8,2:8, 12:5), Blood and Water of Jesus ( 11:6, 12:11, 7:14), and it is not talking about only the period of Great Tribulation but the whole NT period as we read the Birth and Ascension of Jesus ( 12:5) and read the overview in 6:2 and find 1260 days since the Birth of Jesus thru End-times in 12:5-17 which covers 2000 years.
Revelation is not the end of NT, but the summary of NT period for 2000 years.

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

So this is how you reply?
I never said I know the date or a time frame for Christ's second coming, read the post again.
But I guess I can expect this from those who can't defend their own theology.

That is the best way to reply to trap-setters.....

Now it is offical. You believe Christ will return before 2019.
My next question is, what will happen to your theology if He doesn't????????

Absolutely nothing, what happens to yours if He does? Will you be ready? Will you be watching and waiting?

My guess, the PSTers would re-interpret scripture as it pertains to prophecy of course.

It will be best for you to wait until then and see.

BGTF could you please tell me the names of those who you follow on PST?
(your comment on oil scares me. I hope you didn't get that from Hal Lindsey )

I'm not sure what you mean by PST.

I have found it always works best not to do my thinking with other men's brains.

The comments on oil really should scare you, simply because you don't live with the blessed hope. I want you to rest assured though, that all my books are at the very least, 50 years old.

P.S. I have read quite a few books on "End time prophecies" . The one who influenced me the most is Gary DeMar. American Vision Link Here

The best person to ask is Christ. He said to Sardis (a prototype of the Reformed Church) specifically that they would not know. They may have many good things to say, but I most definitely do not put eschatology in the hands of the reformed.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


BGTF

 

[peterotto]

2Sa 22:1¶And David spake unto the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD had delivered him out of the hand of all his enemies, and out of the hand of Saul:


What was seen! Was God's great power in the forces of nature! Read the whole song.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Exactly! No one actually saw God coming down. Same interpretation applies to Matt 24.

 

[peterotto]

Egyptian historians say it happened around 671 B.C.

I'm not sure your points in these references.

No one has ever "seen" the LORD. What has been seen is His great wonders in the sky and on the earth.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Exactly, no one saw God come down to Egypt. Same interpretation applies to Matt 24

 

[Eliyahu]

For PTR, the question to be answered essentially is the Believers coming out of the Tribulation, the inumerable number of Believers.

Re 7:
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

This must be explained along with how the Holy Spirit will have resumed the ministry who will start to preach since there will be no believer on the earth after the Rapture, why the Bible is silent about the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Rev. how such inumerable number of believers are produced despite the persection, how Jews preached the Gospel to the gentiles.

As for the timing, 2 Thess 2 says this:

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God

This tells us that the time of Rapture will be after the Apostasy, after the Revealing of Anti-Christ.
In that case, PTR would happen only after the Appearance of Anti-Christ.
Have we got Anti-Christ revealed?
The order mentioned in the Bible is that the Revival of Israel ( Mt 24:32), then this Appearance of Anti-Christ and Apostasy. The Apostasy is going on continuously as we see abortion, gay marriage, swapping, legalization of marijuana, polarism etc.
I distinguish between Generation Gap and Generation Length when we read about Mt 24:34.
Generation length is once mentioned as 120 years ( Gen 6) but understood as 70-80 years in the Psalm, but what it meant by Mt 24:34 seems the period during which any reasonable number of people can survive to witness the history, which may mean about 100 years.
Also, the timing of the generation is a question, does the Revival of Israel mean the Revival of the State of Israel? or Revival of the Messianic Jews?
I understand the Revival of Messianic Jews are very active since 1980's.
We don't know the timing, but can understand the procedures and the order of the happenings. Vatican intends to relocate the head quarter to Jerusalem and they revealed their strong appetite for the Temple Mount as we hear about the Oslo Agreement which revealed the willingness of PLO to hand over the Temple Al-Aqsa to Vatican as long as Vatican cooperate and ensure the stateship of PLO, after making Jerusalem the International Freedom City with its own airport governed by multi-national countries for all religions, and having the agreement with Israel for the peace there with the EU peacekeepers stationed in Land of Israel.
On the Temple Mount, the Man of Sin, the Man of Perdition will sit and stand, and the whole land of Israel will be protected by EU peacekeeping forces which means the forces from mostly Roman Catholic countries. These are already agreed quite a lot at the Oslo agreement in 1995 and 2002-3. Politicians are visiting Vatican.
Remember Shimon Perez, the current president of Israel was educated in Catholic schools in Poland and is very close to Vatican.
RCC works thru Ecumenical Movement with many other "Catholic" churches (though they are just a observer at Ecumenical, not the member). They work closely with Muslims and Buddhists. They don't expect much from Baptists and Brethren, but they condemn them as " cults" But there are many, many Catholic Baptists inside the Baptist churches.
Satan works very hard and he is diligent, and his people are more diligent than the true believers. Even today, he works hard, while the True believers are lazy and lukewarm, saying " we are going to be raptured, and want to say Bi Bi to the unbelievers who will suffer the Great Tribulation" " We are not the second class believers like the saints during the Tribulation, we will be raptured and have no problem!" " we live in a nice country, blessed by God, and we are rich without problems like Flood and Famine, we are truly blessed, though we pay taxes and they go to the Catholic schools" " we are blessed to live together with Holy Catholics, led by Catholic president George Bush ( Episcopalian Catholic), killing thousands leaving millions of refugees "

In the meantime Satan works very hard ! and the Believers will start to wake up when the Tribulation fall upon them.

 

[peterotto]

My bad, I was saying PST when I meant to say PTR (pre-trib rapture).

BGTF, you theology is saying Christ WILL be here in the next 12 years.
What will happen to your theology is, it will be proven to be a false one. Just like
Darby's predictions in the 1850's. And you BGTF will be proven to be a false.
Sorry if that sounds to harsh, but it is.
Here is your quote

1) We are approx 6013 years since creation plus or minus 25 years or so.
2) The seventh thousand of years is to be the millennial reign of Christ on earth.

what happens to yours if He does? Will you be ready? Will you be watching and waiting?

Christ can return at any time. In the mean time I am to occupy and be a light in the world. What I am not doing is the scare tatic dispensationalist do.

I have found it always works best not to do my thinking with other men's brains.

Sorry BGTF, that kind of talk won't get by me. No one, and I mean no one, who had read the Bible thru, found dispensationalism. It was a scheme that was made up back in the 1850's and took some changes since then. What I am saying BGTF, you have learned this from someone else. I am asking who?

I am not ashamed to have read many different authors with different perspectives on eschatology. I read them, and came up with my own. Gary DeMar just happen to have to most influence. Sorry to hear you are reluntant to say who your teachers were in this subject.

you don't live with the blessed hope.

Oh, brother. ....... Thanks for the insult.

I want you to rest assured though, that all my books are at the very least, 50 years old.

Could you tell me what books those are? And who the authors are?
Why do you hide from all this?

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

My bad, I was saying PST when I meant to say PTR (pre-trib rapture).

BGTF, you theology is saying Christ WILL be here in the next 12 years.
What will happen to your theology is, it will be proven to be a false one. Just like
Darby's predictions in the 1850's. And you BGTF will be proven to be a false.

My theology is saying I expect Christ to be here tonight, but He might wait a little longer, it is you who is doing math to determine the day. If you will do the calculation again you will see within the margin of error, I have been expecting Him for quite some time now. I know He won't come though until the last kernel of wheat is found in the harvest. The scarcity with which they are found today shows that we are not looking for too many more.

Christ can return at any time. In the mean time I am to occupy and be a light in the world. What I am not doing is the scare tatic dispensationalist do.

I am not saying anything to scare anyone, I am just excited about the near coming of the Saviour. If people are scared it is only because they are not looking for His coming, but for the judgment afterwards. The only ones who see fear in seeing the birthpains of the coming of Christ are those who are not really trusting that He has saved them from the wrath to come.

Because of oil supply alone the world looks to be in horrible condition within a mere 5 years. The best minds in the industry have been trying to stave it off, but are coming up empty. The secular minds are even seeing the beginning of a time of horrible tribulation shortly, the amazing thing to me is why can't those who claim to have the Spirit of God see it?

From secular minds, no less. Check out the headlines that are catching their attention today.
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/BreakingNews.html
Older but interesting from another secular mind.
http://www.dieoff.org/page224.htm

What they are all saying is that for them the party is over. What I am saying is that my trial and grief is nearly over and my party is about to begin.

Sorry BGTF, that kind of talk won't get by me. No one, and I mean no one, who had read the Bible thru, found dispensationalism. It was a scheme that was made up back in the 1850's and took some changes since then. What I am saying BGTF, you have learned this from someone else. I am asking who?

I can see that you are very reformed. I did learn it from and intense study of the word of God.

I am not ashamed to have read many different authors with different perspectives on eschatology. I read them, and came up with my own. Gary DeMar just happen to have to most influence. Sorry to hear you are reluntant to say who your teachers were in this subject.

See below.

Oh, brother. ....... Thanks for the insult.

It wasn't intended as an insult. The blessed hope is for those who expect Christ's coming at any moment, before the wrath that is yet to come.

You are either amillennial and don't believe there is wrath yet to come, or you are post trib, and believe you will be part of the wrath to come. In either case, one can not have the blessed hope.

Could you tell me what books those are? And who the authors are?
Why do you hide from all this?

You are making assumptions that I play games, I don't.

Here is a reasonable cross-section of the names on my bookshelves.
William Tyndale, Martin Luther, John Bunyan, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen, Thomas Watson, Thomas Manton, Charles Spurgeon, Ralph Venning, JC Ryle, DL Moody, Arthur Pink, Horatius Bonar, John Rice, John Broadus, Alfred Gibbs, RA Torrey, Andrew Murray.


BGTF

 

[Ed Edwards]

Posted by Bob Ryan:

Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

These events could easily apply to the early church, persecution by the Jews, Persecution by pagan Rome, persecution by Papal Rome and to the final persecution of the last days. All would see these same events.

Amen Brother Bob Ryan -- Preach it!

Thank you for agreeing with my statement:
Matthew 24:4-14 is the signs of the Time of the
Gentiles (AKA: Church Age).

Posted by Bob Ryan:

Matt 24
14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.[/b]

Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.. This scope applies to “all mankind” not just Jews.

I respectfully disagree with your statement about Matthew 24:14

Here is some proof throughout the early part of
the Church Age (Matt 24:14 is the signs that the Chruch Age
continue):

--------------------------------

Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.


Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Saviour
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.
The spread of the gospel to all the world is a
sign that the Church Age (Times of the Gentiles)
continues. Again, we show:
Matthew 24:4-14 is the signs of the 'Time of the
Gentiles' (AKA: 'Church Age').

 

[Eliyahu]

Where can we find our era in the Revelation?

In which stage mentioned in the Revelation do we live now?

Can anyone dare to say about it?

In my interpretation, we can find our time in Rev 10, 11, 12 as well. But Re 9 gives us the details of our time. 5 month period ( 9:5) is very much meaningful and I would call this period as Abaddon era.( Re 9:11). However, this must be called " the first Woe" ( Re 9:12) as well where
- so many false prophets are prospering,( 9:2-3, 6-10)
- many people are cheated by false religion.
- that means the freedom of religion for many cults
- True believers are not cheated, nor suffered ( 9:4)

This era last 5 months,which means 150 days and if we take it as the years, it will be 150 years.
Since when? I would think about around 1880-1883 when the Revision committee for the Bible was formed, to deviate from the Words of God reflecting the liberalism, evolution, Catholicism, etc. and also, there were many development in the freedom of democracy and in the industries.

 

[steaver]

Exactly, no one saw God come down to Egypt. Same interpretation applies to Matt 24

When does this prophecy in Acts 1 get fullfilled?

Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

God Bless!

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Where can we find our era in the Revelation?

In which stage mentioned in the Revelation do we live now?

Can anyone dare to say about it?

In my interpretation, we can find our time in Rev 10, 11, 12 as well. But Re 9 gives us the details of our time. 5 month period ( 9:5) is very much meaningful and I would call this period as Abaddon era.( Re 9:11). However, this must be called " the first Woe" ( Re 9:12) as well where
- so many false prophets are prospering,( 9:2-3, 6-10)
- many people are cheated by false religion.
- that means the freedom of religion for many cults
- True believers are not cheated, nor suffered ( 9:4)

This era last 5 months,which means 150 days and if we take it as the years, it will be 150 years.
Since when? I would think about around 1880-1883 when the Revision committee for the Bible was formed, to deviate from the Words of God reflecting the liberalism, evolution, Catholicism, etc. and also, there were many development in the freedom of democracy and in the industries.

That is quite the mixture of eschatological doctrine you have, the best way I can describe it is Amillennial Futurism. Are you absolutely certain that you received this from God?


BGTF

 

[Ed Edwards]

This is pretty much a viewpoint neutral map to
Christian Eschatology:

-------------------------------------------------

There are four possible Basic Approaches
to Prophecy. All of them are believed by some
Christians:

Preterism (past)
Historicism (now)
Futurism (future)
Idealism (timeless)

Preterism - the Tribulation Period has already taken place.

Historicism - the Tribulation Period started in
the 4th century (301-400AD) in events pertaining
to Constantine & his Christianization of the Roman Empire
and continues until the Second Coming.

Futurism - most prophetic events will take
place in the future especially: Tribulation Period,
Second Coming, & Millennial Messanic
Kingdom.

Idealism - there is no specific timing for events,
the prophecies of the New Testament are to
be understood spiritually (they are still Literal & REAL)
not physically.

There are three basic relationships between the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom and the Second Coming
of Messiah Jesus (all of them are or have been
believed by groups of Christians):

a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

a-mill - 'no mill' - the millinnial Messanic Kingdom
is to be interpeted real, literal, and spiritual

pre-mill - the physical Second Coming of Messiah Jesus
will be before the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

post-mill - mankind will set up a physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom
worth of Christ who will then have His Second Coming

Preterism (past) can lead only to:
a-mill
post-mill
(it cannot lead to pre-mill because the Millennium
hasn't happened yet)

Historicism (now) can lead to all three x-mills
a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

Futurism (future) and only be:
pre-mill
post-mill
(if you are a-mill then likely you are Idealistic or Peteristic)

Idealism (timeless) can only be:
a-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
so is the second coming)
post-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
but the second coming is physical
(pre-mill cannot be because it calls for a physical
Millennial Messianic Kingdom and a physical Second
Coming)

Part two someday ...

 

[Eliyahu]

That is quite the mixture of eschatological doctrine you have, the best way I can describe it is Amillennial Futurism. Are you absolutely certain that you received this from God?
BGTF

I object Amilennialism as I believe the New Millennium will be unfolding after the second coming of Jesus.
As for the Words from the Lord, I can clearly say about Re 12, when I knelt down in His presence without any disturbance. As for 9, 10,11, there are some people who interpret them as I do as well, and they coincide with my interpretation.
I experienced such Understanding when I was confronted with the question about the days and nights spent in the tomb by Jesus. When I bothered with "Good Friday" and thought about 2 nights and 3 days, the Lord told me this way" It is I that stayed in the tomb, how can you change what I actually did?"
Thereafter I studied the Bible and found Mt 28:1 says the plural Sabbath days two times, and one is for the week ( from one Sabbath to another Sabbath, but the first one is apparently for the Sabbath itself, and sometimes the Sabbath is mentioned as the plural even for the singular Sabbath. However, in that verse, it was unusual for the single Sabbath, then I discussed with some Messianic Jews and found they believe that there were 2 Sabbaths involved in that week, the one Regular Sabbath and the other High Sabbath. This situation was quite well confirmed when I read Luke 6:1, the second-first Sabbath ( Deutro-proton Sabbath). Many modern versions couldn't understand the meaning of Deutro-Proton and therefore omitted it ! KJV has rightly written it, however, KJV paraphrased as the second Sabbath after the first Sabbath. It doesn't teach the very important Truth! the Deutro-Proton Sabbath is the Sabbath after Proto-Proton Sabbath! and that is the first regular Sabbath after the Passover Sabbath, and next day after the Proto-Proton Sabbath is the Day of Firstfruits on which the Priest shake and wave the sheafs of the firstfruits in the presence of God, which teaches the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Nobody was allowed to cut and eat the ears of the wheat by that time. But after this day of Firstfruits, everybody was allowed to harvest, and therefore the disciples could harvest the ears of the corns, except on the Sabbath. However Jesus, the Real Sabbath was there and the Believers could enjoy the blessings after the firstfruits-Resurrection as long as we are with Jesus. I learned this portion from JN Darby, you can find this in very detail in the Preface of JN Darby Translation of the Bible.
But I learned about Mt 28:1.
I can assure you that the interpretations about Re 12 was received from the Lord, and you can confirm this when you reach the heaven. Also, I personally confirmed with the Lord about the interpretation of Re 6, 10, 11, when I heard from other brethren. Are you sure about your interpretation and have you ever confirmed it with the Lord?
I don't say that I know all the Eschatology, but I can say what I learned from the Lord is sure and certain. Again I can tell you that the Truth which I mentioned as the church will experience the Great Tribulation will be confirmed in the presence of God. I have such conviction and confidence, and accordingly I deplore the current situation where many true believers are cheated sadly. BGTF, please trust me that I received the interpretation about Re 12 from the Lord.

The Believers have been persecuted throughout the history.

Abel was martyred by his brother.
Joseph was persecuted by his brethren.
Israel was persecuted in Egypt
King David was persecuted by Saul
Isaiah and Jeremiah were persecuted by the Jews
Many martyrs in OT were killed by their enemies.
Jesus was persecuted by the Jews while He was on this earth
All 12 apostles martyred except Apostle John.
Paul martyred
Early churches like Donatists, Montanists, Cathari, were persecuted by their enemies, and martyred,
Many believers like Paulicians, Nestorians, Albigenes, Waldensians, Bruder Gemeinde, Anabaptists, were persecuted, had their properties forfeited, and were drowned or killed, or beheaded.

Were they all killed due to the Wrath of God? I don't say they were perfect or their doctrines were correct in every respect, but I want to tell you this, the Persecutions are not new in the history, and should be distinguished from the Wrath of God.
The True believers will always be protected from the Wrath of God even during the Great Tribulation. There will be a lot of disasters due to the Wrath of God during the GT, but the believers will be protected from the Wrath, which doesn't mean that the enemies like Beast and Harlot will stop the persecution of the Believers. And the Rapture is nowhere mentioned as happening before the Persecution.
Ther will be better resurrection and worse resurrection for the Believers ( Heb 11:35) and the Resurrection will not take place all at once but in the order ( 1 Cor 15:23-24), and only the more blessed believers can participate in the New Millennium ( Re 20:4-5) and our generation is
privileged to be among them.

Re 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and (the ones) which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again ( not be resurrected) until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Words in ( ) are added by me for understanding.

I know many people are claiming this and that after reading few books on Eschatology. Have they confirmed such interpretation with the Lord? I don't think so and I can see thru what is wrong with their saying.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Eliyahu: //I know many people are claiming this and that
after reading few books on Eschatology.
Have they confirmed such interpretation
with the Lord? I don't think so and I can see thru
what is wrong with their saying.//

I was saved in April 1952 during a Revival meeting
featuring a pretrib rapturist, a pre-mill Second Comer,
and a Futurists. Over the past 55-years I've
confirmed such an interpertation with the
Lord many times. The best book i've seen
by eschatologist LaHaye is HOW TO STUDY THE
BIBLE FOR YOURSELF.

 

[Eliyahu]

Eliyahu: //I know many people are claiming this and that
after reading few books on Eschatology.
Have they confirmed such interpretation
with the Lord? I don't think so and I can see thru
what is wrong with their saying.//

I was saved in April 1952 during a Revival meeting
featuring a pretrib rapturist, a pre-mill Second Comer,
and a Futurists. Over the past 55-years I've
confirmed such an interpertation with the
Lord many times. The best book i've seen
by eschatologist LaHaye is HOW TO STUDY THE
BIBLE FOR YOURSELF.

I have so many Christian believers, truly born again believers who claim PTR. Even now I have a very good fellowship with PTR believers.
As long as they are truly born again, the messages thru such believers can save the people and the new believers are born again.
However, I am so much convinced that they are on the wrong track, and the Lord tells me to work for it.
Now the solution for this problem and this discrepance can be found in Acts 17:11 as the Bereans. YOu can exmine what I am saying.
For example you can compare the interpretation for each verse.
Someone says the bow in Re 6:2 means the Long Distance Missiles and he claimed before that there will be the war between USSR and USA. However, my interpretation is that the Bow is the weapon as in Ephesians 6:11- and Jesus carries such to shoot out the Words of God, the arrows.
Then someone says that the church will be raptured as Re 4:1 and therefore all the story is about the time after the Rapture. However, as I mentioned, Re 12 tells us the birth of Jesus and His ascension, and therefore such view is wrong.
This matter is about the deception which traps the True Believers, not the fake Christians, and therefore I argue with the sincere believers mostly.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 6:12 (quoted elsewhere)
I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. 13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. 14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”//

Oops, this isn't parallel to the Second Advent of Jesus event
(Matthew 24:29-30) nor the pretribualtion rapture (Matthew 24:31).
It describes something that STARTS the Tribulation Period.

Compare this with the earthquake at the end of the Tribulation Period:

Rev 16:17-21 (KJV1611 Edition):

And the seuenth Angel powred out his viall into the ayre, and there came a great voyce out of the Temple of heauen, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings: and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were vpon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great Citie was diuided into three parts, and the Cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to giue vnto her the cup of the wine of the fiercenesse of his wrath.
Rev 16:20 And euery yland fled away, and the mountaines were not found.
Rev 16:21 And there fell vpon men a great haile out of heauen, euery stone about the weight of a talent, and men blasphemed God, because of the plague of the hayle: for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

In Rev 6 every "mountain ... was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "the mountaines were not found".

In Rev 6 every "island was moved out of its place";
but in Rev 16 "euery yland fled away".

While the Revelation 6 earthquake is like a magniture 7.0 earthquake
one million places on earth at the same time
(force 13.0) the Revelation 16 earthquake is at least
1,000 times worse (force 16.0).

The wrath of the Lamb begins in Revelation 6 at the beginning of
the Tribulation period: the wrath of God is described in Revelation
16-18 near the end of the Tribulation period. The Living Church of the Living Christ
gathered before that earthquake will NOT suffer through
the 'wrath of the Lamb' NOR the 'wrath of God'.

Tribulation Period = (Wrath) the light 'wrath of God' on sinners
Great Tribualtion Period = (Wrathier) the heavy 'wrath of God' on sinners
Eternal Hell Fire = (Wrathiest) 'wrath of God' on sinners

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
The Holy Spirit showed me these three in the year 2000
or shortly thereafter.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture (PTR)
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.