Pre-tribulation rapture

[BobRyan]

Ed said
Quote:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

No it is the same event -- one where as we see in John 14 "I will come again" being the very SAME one where we see in John 14 "AND receive you unto myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

We do not say of John 14 "Come again" AND "receive you" are TWO different events!

Quite simply put your method only works by doing something with the text that should not be done to John 14 OR to 2Thess 2. Hence - John 14 is the "undoing" of the pre-trib rapture idea.


--- game over for pre-trib

 

[Ed Edwards]

No it is the same event -- one where as we see in John 14 "I will come again" being the very SAME one where we see in John 14 "AND receive you unto myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

We do not say of John 14 "Come again" AND "receive you" are TWO different events!

Quite simply put your method only works by doing something with the text that should not be done to John 14 OR to 2Thess 2. Hence - John 14 is the "undoing" of the pre-trib rapture idea.

--- game over for pre-trib

Actually there may be two events wherein Christ might come
to get me:

1. When I die (I'll also be at the pretribulation resurrection
2. In the pretribulation rapture

Checkmate! The Hope of the Pretribulation rapture/resurrection
trumps ones Post-trib Resurrection Only belief.
(either way, the saved get saved for all eternitly,
not just for 1,000 years, not just for a symbolic 1,000
years, etc.

My method is called understanding the Bible under the influence
of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever been arrested for
being 'Under the Infuence?' :laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

You claimed your proof was in John 14 and you also appealed to 2Thess 2

But now we see that your argument that these are TWO events did not work in John 14 and STILL does not work in 2Thess 2.

You have yet to answer that point.

No it is the same event -- one where as we see in John 14 "I will come again" being the very SAME one where we see in John 14 "AND receive you unto myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be also".

We do not say of John 14 "Come again" AND "receive you" are TWO different events!

Quite simply put your method only works by doing something with the text that should not be done to John 14 OR to 2Thess 2. Hence - John 14 is the "undoing" of the pre-trib rapture idea.

--- game over for pre-trib

Here is the text -

John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.[/b]

How can you possibly argue
"I will come again"
AND
"Receive you unto myself" is a reference to TWO different events??

Yet this is exactly what you did to 2Thess 2!!

Ed said


2 Thessalonians 2:1 (KJV1873):
Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Two events mentioned here:
1) the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
2) our gathering together unto him

John 14 is the undoing of the pre-trib rapture.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Anti-pre-tribber:

/"I will come again"
AND
"Receive you unto myself" is a reference to TWO different events??

I didn't. I said something like
(do you agree or not?):

Actually there may be two events wherein Christ might come
to get me:

1. When I die (I'll still be in the resurrection)
2. In the rapture

BTW, the pre-tribulation rapture is NOT disproved by
John 14. Nor is the PTR proved by John 14.

 

[BobRyan]

Let's get the easy part out of the way first (I can't believe you are making this claim for John 14 -- this is the limit)

--- game over for pre-trib

Here is the text -

John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.[/b]

How can you possibly argue
"I will come again"
AND
"Receive you unto myself" is a reference to TWO different events??

Just HOW do you get this return of Christ to be exactly TWO events given the 100's of millions of saints that have died since then??


The ONLY thing about this text showing TWO events is

1. Christ LEAVING
2. Christ RETURNING

Please tell me that this is not confused in your teaching!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed notes that Brother BobRyan is repeating his arguments

against the Pretribulation Rapture (PTR) and I just got
started arguing for the PTR! :godisgood:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

 

[BobRyan]

Ed notes that Brother BobRyan is repeating his arguments

against the Pretribulation Rapture (PTR) and I just got
started arguing for the PTR! :godisgood:

well done Ed.

It is just that John 14 is such a great silver bullet when it comes to the PTR. I am having some fun with it - honing the argument as I really don't see any possible answer to it for now.

So I am anxious to see how you solve the problem.

John 14 shows only TWO events.

1. Christ leaving
2. Christ "coming again"

you are trying to split his coming in John 14 into ...? what???

Remember 100's of millions of saints have died since this was spoken.

Still waiting

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

John 14 points us to ONE event - the "coming of Christ"

Matt 24 points us to ONE coming of Christ - the one and SAME promise as in John 14.

Rev 20 points us to ONE event for the saints "the FIRST resurrection" where the BLESSED AND HOLY are raised.

1Thess 4 points us to ONE event for the saints "the Dead in Christ rise FIRST".

Peter tells us to "FIX OUR HOPE COMPLETELY" on that ONE event.

There is NO "pre-trib" rapture listed no not in all of scripture.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Yet I've shown you the Pretribulation rapture
in all those scriptures. Please list that Peter scripture.
Thank you.

I even think that 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 starts out
about the Pretribulation rapture (not the Post-trib
rapture or resurrection).

 

[Ed Edwards]

I will show IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)

The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period. FOR IT IS WRITTEN
in Daniel 9:26-27 (nKJV):

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah
shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to
come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations
are determined.
27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with
many for one week; But in the middle
of the week He shall bring an end
to sacrifice and offering. And on
the wing of abominations shall be
one who makes desolate, Even until
the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate."

Please note the lower case "h" in "he" in verse 27
refering not to Messiah in verse 26 but the
to the lower case 'p' "prince that shall come",
notice that in 'one who makes desolate' 'one is
not capitalized - it is the Antichrist.
Note it is written that the Anti-messiah's seven years
are divided in the middle by the abomination
of desolation, dividing the 7-year period into
to parts each 3½-years long (1260 days, 42 months).

The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection,
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 1 Thessalonains 4:13-18 (KJV1873):

But I would not have you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning them which are asleep,
that ye sorrow not, even as others which have
no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose
again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of
the Lord, that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord shall
not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from
heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain
shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:
and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath) FOR IT IS WRITTEN in
1 Thessalonains 5:1-10 (KJV1873):

1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren,
ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so cometh as
a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say,
Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
cometh upon them, as travail upon
a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light,
and the children of the day: we are
not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others;
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night;
and they that be drunken are drunken
in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day,
be sober, putting on the breastplate
of faith and love; and for an helmet,
the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether
we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together,
and edify one another, even as also ye do.

The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah)
FOR IT IS WRITTEN in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (KJV1873):

Now we beseech you, brethren,
by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind,
or be troubled, neither by spirit,
nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
for that day shall not come, except
there come a falling away first,
and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition;

I have shown IT IS WRITTEN:
The Anti-messiah shall reign for 7-years,
the Tribulation period.
The rapture (caught up) will follow a resurrection.
The rapture/resurrection will occur without
previous notice and before the Tribulation period
(wrath).
The rapture (caught up)/resurrection (gathering)
is at the beginning of the Tribulation period
(time of the Anti-messiah) .

 

[BobRyan]

You are in error in a number of places.

1. Dan 9 is a 490 year timeline pointing directly to the promised work of the Messiah - his appearance and His death on the cross where He is the "once for all sacrifice" that puts a stop to all sacrifices as Heb 10 states! Dan 9 is THE greatest timeline prophecy for the coming of the Messiah. How "expected" then that it deals WITH the work and ministry of the Messiah instead of ignoring it!!

Those who try to slice and dice the 490 year timeline into discontiguous chunks of time separated by unknown vague gaps - do great damage to the text of scripture and surely confess that NO timeline given in all of scripture could endure such abuse.

2. 1Thess 4 points to THE COMING of Christ - as promised in John 14, as promised in Matt 24 as promised in 1Cor 15 it is ALL the same "THE FOCUS" of the Nt church according to Peter. It is where we see "THE DEAD in Christ rise first" and it is called by John "The FIRST resurrection".

All one and the SAME. As was pointed out iwth John 14 and 2Thess2 already. These promises point to "THE Coming of Christ".

3. 1 Thess 5 speaks of judgment and wrath but not of THE COMING or THE appearing. This is because the wrath of God seen in Rev 16 is BEFORE the COMING of Christ in Rev 20.

Again - your interpretation is in error.

4. 2Thess 2 PROVES that 'THE COMING" that the NT saints were looking for "WOULD NOT COME UNTIL the man of sin was revealed". That has yet to happen.

In all these things the ONE consistent and workable model is that they are ALL addressing THE FOCUS of the NT saints not a bunch of 2nd comings but ONE!

The promise of Christ in John 14 is the perfect model showing us that "I GO AWAY" and "I WILL come AGAIN" -- pure and simple.

Let us all accept it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yet I've shown you the Pretribulation rapture
in all those scriptures. Please list that Peter scripture.
Thank you.

I even think that 1 Thessalonians Chapter 5 starts out
about the Pretribulation rapture (not the Post-trib
rapture or resurrection).

No rapture at all is referenced in 1Thess 5 - just the wrath of God as we see it in Rev 16.

In John 14 – John tells us of THE PROMISED second coming event.

John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.
3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.[/b]

Here we see two things – two events

• “I GO and prepare a place”
• 2. I WILL come again and RECEIVE you unto Myself

The first event happened 40 days after Jesus’ bodily resurrection.
The second event is THE PROMISE, hope and focus of the NT saints.

Peter tells us that this single event – THE fulfillment of the John 14 promise is THE event that all NT saints and writers focus upon.

1Peter 1
6 In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials,
7 so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
8 and though you have not seen Him, you love Him, and though you do not see Him now, but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory,
9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.


10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.[/b]


In his second letter Peter tells us that he considers it right to continually remind us of this SINGLE focus event!

2 Peter 1
12 Therefore, [b]I will always be ready to remind[/b] you of these things, even [b]though you already know them[/b], and have been established in the truth which is present with you.
13 [b]I consider it right[/b], as long as I am in this earthly dwelling, to stir you up by way of reminder,[/b]


John speaks of that SAME promise again in full detail – describing it’s fulfillment in a two chapter detailed sequence in Rev 19-20.

It is the “FIRST resurrection” that of the “blessed and Holy”

Paul gives the SAME focus on the SAME singular event in 1Thess 4, 2Thess 2 and 1Cor 15 telling us in 1Thess 4
“The DEAD in CHRIST will rise FIRST”

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the Coming of Christ anxiously expected by the NT saints "would NOT come until the man of sin was revealed"

 

[BobRyan]

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the Coming of Christ anxiously expected by the NT saints "would NOT come until the man of sin was revealed"


2Thess 2
1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,[/b]
2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.
3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed[/b], the son of destruction,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

So we see THE promise of “The coming” of Christ where we are gathered together to Him. As He said “I will COME again and RECEIVE you to Myself”

We see this same thing in Matt 24 – THE focus of the NT saints – THE event promised by Christ in John 14!!

Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

In 1Cor 15 Paul points us to THE promise of John 14 again with the SAME components regarding THE coming of the Lord and our being raised up to be gathered unto Him.

1Cor 15
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits[/b], after that those who are Christ's at His coming[/b],

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[BobRyan]

Prior to the completion of the Millennium there is one and only one "coming of Christ" that is THE focus of the NT saints -- promised by Christ in John 14 and seen clearly in Matt 24, 1Cor 15, 1Thess 4, 2Thess 2, 1Peter 1, Rev 19-20

ALL these Bible writers focus on THE promised event of John 14 -- and as Peter tells us in 1Peter 1 THIS IS THE focus of the entire NT church!

I am going have to go with Christ in John 14 on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

none of your scriptures support you contention:

... there is one and only one "coming of Christ" ...

If they did you could show it easily.
The two phased Second Coming of Christ is taught
in places like Revelation 20:4-5
seperated (in the KJV by an '&' /ampersand or and/ )

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe
vntill the thousand yeeres
were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Two groups of people in Revelation 2-:4-5

GROUP ONE:
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
These could be the pretribulation saints who
are rewarded in the Millennial Messanaic Kingdom
with Service on Earth with Jesus (instead of groving
around in Heavenlike the others)

GROUP TWO
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;
These are those resurrected after the Tribulation
Period - they were killed in the Trib by the Antichrist.

There is NOTHING in the meaning of 'first' that
forces this translation to read:

This is the first and only resurrection

IMHO the First Resurrection
is the resurreciton type: resurection of the just
(only in Christ can one be just).

IMHO the Second (implied) Resurrection
is the resurreciton type: resurection of the un-just.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //2Thess 2 makes it clear that
the Coming of Christ anxiously expected
by the NT saints "would NOT come until
the man of sin was revealed"//

better yet:

2Thess 2 makes it clear that the Coming of Christ
anxiously expected by the NT saints "would NOT come until
the 'falling away' (KJV)
or departing' (Geneva Bible) happened
"and the man of sin was revealed"

 

[Ed Edwards]

1 Peter 1:7 (KJV1611 Edition):
That the triall of your faith, being much more precious
then golde that perisheth (though it be tried with fire)
might bee founde vnto your praise, and honour and
glorie at the appearing of Iesus Christ:

Not many use this passage.
It talks about we real Christians receiving
praise, honor, & glory -- I call it the Glorification.
Our Glorification IMO takes place when
Jesus comes to get the real Christians
in the pretribulation rapture/resurrection
NOT when Messiah Yeshua comes to kick
Antichrist booty.

 

[BobRyan]

none of your scriptures support you contention:

All of them show only ONE coming of Christ only ONE promise for that ONE event as was pointed out in John 14 and for which you have yet to come up with an answer.

Even Peter tells us all to focus on that ONE evcent that ALL NT saints focus on -

Bob said
Prior to the completion of the Millennium there is one and only one "coming of Christ" that is THE focus of the NT saints -- promised by Christ in John 14 and seen clearly in Matt 24, 1Cor 15, 1Thess 4, 2Thess 2, 1Peter 1, Rev 19-20

ALL these Bible writers focus on THE promised event of John 14 -- and as Peter tells us in 1Peter 1 THIS IS THE focus of the entire NT church!

I am going have to go with Christ in John 14 on this one.

Ed
The two phased Second Coming of Christ is taught
in places like Revelation 20:4-5
seperated (in the KJV by an '&' /ampersand or and/ )

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke
vpon their foreheads, or in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe
vntill the thousand yeeres
were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This is where it is important to read the detail in my post "BEFORE the Millennium is complete" I am pointing to the coming of Christ BEFORE the completion of the 1000 years.

I agree fully that another one takes place AFTER.

But it is in the FIRST resurrection that the DEAD in Christ are raised 1Thess4.

That is THE "I go away I WILL come again" event for all saints.

The point remains.

in Christ,

Bob
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