Pre-tribulation rapture

[BobRyan]

If one reads John 14 carefully you will notice the complete undoing of the PTR doctrine so popular today.

Jesus said "I GO to PREPARE a Place for you" IN My Father's house.

As much as some would like to insist this is vague non-specific and might be "a bunch of leavings" -- it is only one -- it is Christ going to heaven after His resurrection.

Jesus then said "IF I GO ... I WILL COME AGAIN and RECEIVE YOU unto Myself IN ORDER THAT WHERE I AM THERE you may BE also"

As much as some woud like to pretend he was talking about his resurrection (coming back from the GRAVE to RECEIVE THEM after preparing a place for them in the GRAVE???) it is in fact talking about "HIS COMING" that was FUTURE to the John 14 statement and that was subsequent to HIS work IN HIS FATHER's house (heaven) from which WE ALL eagerly await His "return".

This is incredibly obvious and so much so that I notice you make no attempt to exegete John 14 to show that it is anything else Ed.

But come on - you can not blame us all for seeing that this John 14 is the undoing of the Pre-trib Ratpure idea.

As said before there is not even ONE SINGLE TEXT showng the pre-trib rapture -- no not even ONE.

Why not come on over to the Bible side on this one - the logic and reasoning from scripture works a lot better here - no contradictions and you get to use solid Bible exegesis to boot! What is not to like??


John 14

1 ""Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
2 ""In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you.

Does that sound like "My Father's house in the grave before I am resurrected"?? No!
In Fact in John 20 Christ insists that HE HAS NOT YET been to the Father.

3 ""If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again AND receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.[/b]



"Just pointing out the obvious" as it is often my role to do on these boards.

1. There is not even one text in all of scripture that speaks of a "pre-tribulation rapture" OR that says "the saints will be gathered to Christ AND THEN the Great tribulation will come" or any such thing!

2. John 14 and 1Peter 1 point us to the ONE promised return that ALL NT saints have as their focus as they look to the future return of Christ PRE-millennium!

Enjoy!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

BGTF,



Does your question defend your fallacy?

Just answer the question.

Who raised Christ from the dead?

BGTF

 

[Ed Edwards]

The scene in heaven right afater the pretribulation rapture/resurrection:

Rev 7:1-4 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
And after that, I sawe foure Angels stand on the foure corners
of the earth, holding the foure windes of the earth,
that the winds should not blow on the earth, neither
on the sea, neither on any tree.
2 And I sawe another Angel come vp from the East,
which had the seale of the liuing God,
and hee cried with a loud voice to the foure Angels
to who power was giuen to hurt the earth, and the sea, saying,
:3 Hurt ye not the earth, neither the sea,
neither the trees, til we haue sealed
the seruants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them,
which were sealed, and there were sealed
an hundreth and foure and fourtie thousand
of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

If these 144,000 Sealed Jews are the preachers for the
(if it were today) 18,000,000 Jewish/Israeli people on
earth today.
That is a ratio of one preacher to 125 Jewish/Israeli.

In 1990 the average Catholic Church in the USofA
ministerd to about 2,000 people.
So there are plenty of preachers to preach to
the group God is going to target.
I'm sure these preachers will do better with the
Jewish/Israeli than RCC priests do with

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

If one reads John 14 carefully you will notice the complete undoing of the PTR doctrine so popular today.



1. There is not even one text in all of scripture that speaks of a "pre-tribulation rapture" OR that says "the saints will be gathered to Christ AND THEN the Great tribulation will come" or any such thing!

2. John 14 and 1Peter 1 point us to the ONE promised return that ALL NT saints have as their focus as they look to the future return of Christ PRE-millennium!

Enjoy!

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

The historicist position has many more holes than you are admitting.

Are you looking for Christ to return 5 minutes from now? Probably not.

Since they have not happened yet, where do the 100 pound hailstones fit into the historicist position?

Do they have to come before Christ does? Most genuine historicists would have to say yes.

If so, can you be looking for Christ to come without them happening first? No, you can't possibly be.

With the historicist position, you are looking for too many other things to happen before the coming of Christ, giving the sense that His coming can not be imminent. Without prooftexting you should admit that the Bible teaches in many places of the imminence of Christ's coming. The historicist position denies all of that.


BGTF

 

[Eliyahu]

The scene in heaven right afater the pretribulation rapture/resurrection:

Rev 7:1-4 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
And after that, I sawe foure Angels stand on the foure corners
of the earth, holding the foure windes of the earth,
that the winds should not blow on the earth, neither
on the sea, neither on any tree.
2 And I sawe another Angel come vp from the East,
which had the seale of the liuing God,
and hee cried with a loud voice to the foure Angels
to who power was giuen to hurt the earth, and the sea, saying,
:3 Hurt ye not the earth, neither the sea,
neither the trees, til we haue sealed
the seruants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them,
which were sealed, and there were sealed
an hundreth and foure and fourtie thousand
of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

If these 144,000 Sealed Jews are the preachers for the
(if it were today) 18,000,000 Jewish/Israeli people on
earth today.
That is a ratio of one preacher to 125 Jewish/Israeli.

In 1990 the average Catholic Church in the USofA
ministerd to about 2,000 people.
So there are plenty of preachers to preach to
the group God is going to target.
I'm sure these preachers will do better with the
Jewish/Israeli than RCC priests do with

At best you presented your theory on the assumption that Romans 10:14 is wrong. How could they start believing without a preacher at all on this earth? You are proving Romans 10:14 is wrong, again and again.

Then you lack the other explanation about the Gentiles.
How many millions from all over the countries in the world ?
You must be calling the Era as Explosion of Grace instead of Great Tribulation.
Read Daniel 7-9, then you will find nowhere the Saints are raptured, though they eventually receive the kingdom.

 

[Eliyahu]

Just answer the question.

Who raised Christ from the dead?

BGTF

I believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

What for do you ask the question. It is your turn.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan in post #161 & others:

Why not come on over to the Bible side on this one ...

Rom 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
For I say, through the grace giuen vnto mee,
to euery man that is among you, not to thinke
of himselfe more highly then hee ought to thinke,
but to thinke soberly, according as God
hath dealt to euery man the measure of faith.

Personally I try to do this scripture:
Rom 8:23-26 (KJV1611 Edition):
And not only they, but our selues also which haue the first fruites
of the spirit, euen we our selues groane within our selues,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For wee are saued by hope: but hope that is seene,
is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if wee hope for that wee see not, then doe wee
with patience waite for it.
26 Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know
not what wee should pray for as wee ought:
but the spirit it selfe maketh intercession for vs
with groanings, which cannot bee vttered.

Post-tribulation rapture only of a few thousand people
is NOT what I'm hoping for in Jesus. I hope that Jesus
has a pretribulation rapture and raptures
a Billion people. Now that would be great!
Even better, if I was one of the undeserving but fortunate
people who DON'T HAVE TO DIE. But you know, I can't
fault Jesus if it doesn't happen to me -- I'll get GLORIFIED
IN CHRIST anyway - at the pretribulation resurrection.

 

[Ed Edwards]

At best you presented your theory on the assumption that Romans 10:14 is wrong. How could they start believing without a preacher at all on this earth? You are proving Romans 10:14 is wrong, again and again.

Then you lack the other explanation about the Gentiles.
How many millions from all over the countries in the world ?
You must be calling the Era as Explosion of Grace instead of Great Tribulation.
Read Daniel 7-9, then you will find nowhere the Saints are raptured, though they eventually receive the kingdom.

Uh, the pretribulation rapture doctrine of the
Tribulation Period (AKA: Daniel's 70th week) that shows up
in your writing is believed by nobody. It is a totally unrecognizable
doctrine that nobody is teaching. It is a still born Straw Man -
but you did zap it to pieces

 

[Eliyahu]

Uh, the pretribulation rapture doctrine of the
Tribulation Period (AKA: Daniel's 70th week) that shows up
in your writing is believed by nobody. It is a totally unrecognizable
doctrine that nobody is teaching. It is a still born Straw Man -
but you did zap it to pieces

Yeah! PTR is found nowhere in Daniel as you say. It is a strawman theory !

 

[BobRyan]

Post-tribulation rapture only of a few thousand people
is NOT what I'm hoping for in Jesus. I hope that Jesus
has a pretribulation rapture and raptures
a Billion people. Now that would be great!

Hope for what you will - my question was -- "what about scripture"??

Why not take a Bible stance on this one - instead of having not one single text showing a pre-trib rapture?

You rightly say that we should focus on THE EVENT where millions if not billions of saints in all ages will be raised or translated and taken to heaven. I AGREE. Peter says this is OUR FOCUS and Christ gives us that very promise in John 14. It is THE FOCUS of ALL NT saints - and is found in MAtt24 AS WELL as John 14 with a LOT of detail given not only in Matt 24 but also in John 19-20 -- ALL the NT authors focus on this and give great detail to THAT singular event that you say you want to focus on.

What we have is John 14, Matt 24, 1Cor 15, 2Thess 2, 2cor 5, Rev 20, 1Peter 1, 1Thess 4 -- ALL pointing to THE SINGULAR focus of ALL NT saint - "The coming of Christ" as promised in John 14 which as Matt 24 and Rev 20 points out- is POST TRIB.

It is the rapture where ALL saints (both the living and the dead) of ALL ages (millions - hopefully billions as you "hope") going to heaven -- the The Father's House WHERE Christ has GONE to prepare a place for us!

Even better, if I was one of the undeserving but fortunate
people who DON'T HAVE TO DIE. But you know, I can't
fault Jesus if it doesn't happen to me -- I'll get GLORIFIED
IN CHRIST anyway

True. We share that view in common -- since the Bible actually teaches it.

- at the pretribulation resurrection.

No such thing as "pretrib resurrection" following the ascension of Christ in Matt 28. Look closely at Matt 24 where "the GREAT TRIBULATION" is mentioned and you will see this clearly!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //Hope for what you will - my question
was -- "what about scripture"??//

Eliyahu:

Ed,

Why don't you post the whole Bible?

You two guys get together and agree on one task
to give me & one
task to perform. Note that there is no way I can
satisfy more than one of you. So, Because I work
for a Jewish Carpenter -- I'll just do what He calls
me to do.

 

[BobRyan]

I agree that you post scripture - JUST NOT when it comes to the pre-trib rapture.

Rather than quoting scripture for everything BUT that -- quote scripture that speaks of "pre-trib rapture".

In Matt 24 we see the saints gathered to Christ AFTER the "Great Tribulation" so "I get that".

"IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days they shall..."


Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Bible says it! I believe it!

By contrast WHERE do you have a text pointing to the PRE-TRIB rapture "but immediately BEFORE the Tribulation of those days He will gather His elect from the four winds" ?? where is YOUR text??

(Ed - seriously for a minute - although I am holding your feet to the fire as it were on this one - but let me know if this is getting uncomfortable - I really just want to discuss the topic not hurt feelings or annoy)

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
(Ed - seriously for a minute - although I am holding your feet to the fire as it were on this one - but let me know if this is getting uncomfortable - I really just want to discuss the topic not hurt feelings or annoy)

No problem, the more of my posts that you ignore, the
more you make me look like I know what I'm talking about.

I don't have time to research this topic, but next post I'll
show what Matthew 24 really says.
I've already shown in great detail all 5 of the resurrections
(2 have already happened, 3 are yet to come).
I showed how, why, when, what, etc IN GREAT DETAIL.
Nobody has mentioned those details or debated it. It has been
ignored. And people following this debate will see that I
know what I'm talking about and nobody else here does.

If two events with the same name have a different
purpose -- they are different events.
If two events with the same name have a different Who?
-- they are different events.
On 24 April 1963 I married my first wife. On 19 Jan 2002
I married my second wife. Is that one marriage or two --
TWO marriages -- but they are both called 'marriage'.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed's Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
Pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24:

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD /Historical fact, not Biblical/

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceeding the end of the age

2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation Period.

Recall the Greek language in which this
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) was written
did not have Microsoft Word to do it with.
So many ands, buts, and other connectors
give the outline. 'Polysyndeton' is a retorical device that uses
(in English) repeated connectors (usually 'and')
instead of an outline. This is most noticable
in the Bible in Genesis 1 and Matthew 24.
I believe the major outline to be:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age /time of the Gentiles -
Biblical phrase/, age of grace, last days, end times, etc.)

Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues.
(Matthew 24:4-14 is NOT signs that Jesus is
Coming Back Soon)

 

[BobRyan]

No problem, the more of my posts that you ignore, the
more you make me look like I know what I'm talking about.

I don't have time to research this topic, but next post I'll
show what Matthew 24 really says.
I've already shown in great detail all 5 of the resurrections
(2 have already happened, 3 are yet to come).
I showed how, why, when, what, etc IN GREAT DETAIL.
Nobody has mentioned those details or debated it. It has been
ignored.

You are covering a pretty wide area with those posts - and in many cases (the coming of Christ, his resurrection, the resurrection we see in Matt 27 and the one that we see at the end of Rev 20 at the end of the Millennium) there is some agreement in our views.

But I am trying to focus specifically on the bible support for the post ascension focus "If I go away I will COME again".

I want to focus on what the Bible says will happen at Christ's coming and when it will be.

And people following this debate will see that I
know what I'm talking about and nobody else here does.

well that remains to be seen - so let's focus on the details.

If two events with the same name have a different
purpose -- they are different events.

An undisputed example of that in scripture would be???

If two events with the same name have a different Who?
-- they are different events.
On 24 April 1963 I married my first wife. On 19 Jan 2002
I married my second wife. Is that one marriage or two --
TWO marriages -- but they are both called 'marriage'.

Mormon?raying:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Scripture is from the KJV1611 Edition

Mat 24:3 And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues, the Disciples came vnto him priuately, saying,
I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
III and (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?

That was the order in which the questions were asked.

Here is the time order of the fullfillment of these events:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,

Here is the question & the scripture in the order events come down:

I Tell vs, when shall these things be?
Mat 24:4 And Iesus answered, and said vnto them, Take heed that no man deceiue you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ: and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:6 And yee shall heare of warres, and rumors of warres: See that yee be not troubled: for all these things must come to passe, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdome against kingdome, and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diuers places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrowes.
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliuer you vp to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and yee shall bee hated of all nations for my names sake.
Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false Prophets shall rise, and shall deceiue many.
Mat 24:12 And because iniquitie shal abound, the loue of many shall waxe cold.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure vnto the end, the same shall be saued.
Mat 24:14 And this Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in all the world,
for a witnesse vnto al nations, and then shall the end come.

III and(what shall be the signe) of the end of the world? ('world' should be 'age')

Mat 24:31 And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall
gather together his Elect from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
Mat 24:32 Now learne a parable of the figtree: when his branch is yet tender, and putteth
foorth leaues, yee know that Summer is nigh:
Mat 24:33 So likewise yee, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is neere, euen at the doores.
Mat 24:34 Uerely I say vnto you, this generation shall not passe, till all these things be fulfilled.
Mat 24:35 Heauen and earth shall passe away, but my wordes shall not passe away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and houre knoweth no man, no, not the Angels of heauen, but my Father onely.
Mat 24:37 But as the dayes of Noe were, so shall also the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the dayes that were before the Flood, they were eating, and drinking,
marrying, and giuing in mariage, vntill the day that Noe entred into the Arke,
Mat 24:39 And knew not vntill the Flood came, and tooke them all away: so shall also
the comming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field, the one shalbe taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill: the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mat 24:42 Watch therfore, for ye know not what houre your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the good man of the house had knowen in what
watch the thiefe would come, he would haue watched, and would not haue suffered his house to be broken vp.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be yee also ready: for in such an houre as you thinke not, the sonne of man commeth.

II And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Mat 24:15 When yee therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
of by Daniel the Prophet, stand in the holy place, (who so readeth, let him vnderstand.)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Iudea, flee into the mountaines.
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the house top, not come downe, to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field, returne backe to take his clothes.
Mat 24:19 And wòe vnto them that are with child, and to them that giue sucke in those dayes.
Mat 24:20 But pray yee that your flight bee not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning
of the world to this time, no, nor euer shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those dayes should be shortned, there should
no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.
Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say vnto you, Loe, heere is Christ, or there: beleeue it not.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shal shew great
signes and wonders: insomuch that (if it were possible,) they shall deceiue the very elect.
Mat 24:25 Behold, I haue told you before.
Mat 24:26 Wherefore, if they shall say vnto you, Behold, he is in the desert,
goe not foorth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers, beleeue it not.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightening commeth out of the East, and shineth euen vnto
the West: so shall also the coming of the Sonne of man be.
Mat 24:28 For wheresoeuer the carkeise is, there will the Eagles bee gathered together.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those dayes, shall the Sunne
be darkned, and the Moone shall not giue her light, and the starres shall fall from
heauen, and the powers of the heauens shall be shaken.
Mat 24:30 And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man in heauen: and
then shall all the Tribes of the earth mourne, and they shall see the Sonne
of man coming in the clouds
of heauen, with power and great glory.

 

[Ed Edwards]

...

Mormon?raying:

Dead First Wife - 5 December 1999 :saint:

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said
I agree that you post scripture - JUST NOT when it comes to the pre-trib rapture.

Rather than quoting scripture for everything BUT that -- quote scripture that speaks of "pre-trib rapture".

In Matt 24 we see the saints gathered to Christ AFTER the "Great Tribulation" so "I get that".

"IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days they shall..."


Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Bible says it! I believe it!

By contrast WHERE do you have a text pointing to the PRE-TRIB rapture "but immediately BEFORE the Tribulation of those days He will gather His elect from the four winds" ?? where is YOUR text??

Ed's Pretribulation view of Matthew 24:

Here is a Pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
Pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24:

In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:

(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?

Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..

Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:

1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14

2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30

3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44

Well we agree that Vs 30 describes his coming.

And I am not sure why you want to separate vs 31 from vs 30 -

But it is clear in the text that at his coming (vs 30) we have the saints Gathered to him (Vs 31) JUST as we see in 1Thess4 and in Rev 19-20.

Not sure how this helps your case though given the wording that I highlighted for you above in vs 29 through 31.

Basically Matt 24 does NOT give a sequence that is of the form "IMMEDIATELY BEFORE the tribulation of those days he will gather his elect from the four winds".

How can you possibly not notice that??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

I believe God raised Jesus Christ from the dead.

What for do you ask the question. It is your turn.

The question, who raised Christ from the dead?

This is the expected answer.

The Father did

1 Thess 1:9-10 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


The Son did

John 2:19-21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21 But he spake of the temple of his body.


The Holy Spirit did

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


The resurrection of Christ is one of the operations of the trinity. There is no confusion about the doctrine of the trinity in those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells. The job of the Holy Spirit is to testify of Christ for a proper understanding of Him.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

A misunderstanding at either the person or work of Christ means that one is without the Holy Spirit, and does not belong to Christ.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit work together likewise in the salvation of men. Do you now agree that those who hold to dualism and other such Christological heresies is tangible proof of unsaved men?


BGTF

 

[ByGracethroughFaith]

Well we agree that Vs 30 describes his coming.

And I am not sure why you want to separate vs 31 from vs 30 -

But it is clear in the text that at his coming (vs 30) we have the saints Gathered to him (Vs 31) JUST as we see in 1Thess4 and in Rev 19-20.

Not sure how this helps your case though given the wording that I highlighted for you above in vs 29 through 31.

Basically Matt 24 does NOT give a sequence that is of the form "IMMEDIATELY BEFORE the tribulation of those days he will gather his elect from the four winds".

How can you possibly not notice that??

in Christ,

Bob

Please deal with the imminence issue with regards to historicism Bob.


BGTF