Pre-tribulation rapture

[Ed Edwards]

StraightAndNarrow: //It says "all nations" meaning all people
will be judged based on what we have done for
the least of these my brethren.//

IMHO Matthew 25:31-46 says 'all nations' meaning each and
every nations that survives the Tribulation period.
For Jesus 'my brethren' is the physical nation of Yisrael.
Hense my statement: "Judged by their treatment of Yisrael"

StraightAndNarrow: //MA 25 says nothing about "God blessing those who bless Yisrael and cursing those who curse Yisrael." //

You are correct, Matthew 25 doesn't mention this.

God said to Abraham when Israel was in his loins:

Gen 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
and curse him, that curseth thee: and in thee shal
all families of the earth be blessed.

So i see nothing wrong with saying:
//WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael//

(free:
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Leui also who receiueth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For hee was yet in the loynes of his Father when Melchisedec met him.

I note that this refers to the loins of Abraham,
forefather of Israel, forefather of Levi.
So any promise said to Abraham was also made to Israel.

So i see nothing wrong with saying:
//WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael//

Differencers betweeen the Matthew 24:31-46
Sheep & Goat Nations judgements:

A. NO resurrection
B. Living Nations judged'
C. ON THE EARTH (Joel 3:2)
D. No books mentioned
E. Three Classes names: 'Sheep', 'Goats', 'Brethren'
F. Time - before the Millinnial Kindom of Messiah Jesus


and the Revelation 20:11-15 judgement:
A. a Resurreciton
B. DEAD judged
C. location not specified (heaven, hell, earth?)
D. Books Opened
E. One Class named : 'THE DEAD'
F. Time - After the Millinnial Kingdom of Messiah Jesus


The three classes of people:
1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD

Other supporting scriptures:
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15

The Judgement of Believers for 'works':

1Co 3:11-15 (KJV1611 Edition):
For other foundation can no man lay, then that is laide,
which is Iesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build vpon this foundation, gold,
siluer, preciousstones, wood, hay, stubble:
1Co 3:13 Euery mans worke shall be made manifest.
For the day shall declare it, because it shall
bee reuealed by fire, and the fire shall trie
euery mans worke of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any mans worke abide which he hath built thereupon,
he shal receiue a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any mans worke shall bee burnt,
he shall suffer losse: but he himselfe shall be saued: yet so, as by fire.

If any man builds upon the foundation good things,
then He is REWARDED.
If bad things then he shall NOT BE REWARDED (suffer loss)
but STILL BE SAVED.

Hello, this is JUDGEMENT but a way milder judgement
for believers than that WHITE THRONE JUDGEMENT
where ALL there will be tossed into everlasting hell fire


The five crowns are part of this judgement.
(Note that these crowns are rewards, NOT punishment)

1. incorruptible crown
The Victor's crown
1 Cor 9:25-27

2. crown of life
Martyr's Crown
Rev 2:10

3. crown of glory
Elder's Crown
1 Pet 5:2-4

4. crown of righteousness
For those who Love His Appearing
2 Timothy 4:6

5. Crown of rejoicing
Soul Winner's Crown
1 Thess 2:19-20

 

[Ed Edwards]

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections
Found in the Holy Bible
Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation: AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogotory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list:

Romans 10:9 (KJV): That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved.


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 3 Sept 2005;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us or
by our understaning of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
cleary notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarliy
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that ressurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[BobRyan]

Not so fast to declare victory -- note the details first.

The saints are raptured

the wicked left and destroyed according to Rev 19 "THE REST were SLAIN".

In Matt 24 we see the saints gathered to Christ AFTER the "Great Tribulation" so "I get that".

"IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation of those days they shall..."


Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


Bible says it! I believe it!

By contrast WHERE do you have a text pointing to the PRE-TRIB rapture "but immediately BEFORE the Tribulation of those days He will gather His elect from the four winds" ?? where is YOUR text??


All that is left on earth is "the great feast of the birds"

As Isaiah said "I looked and behold there was NO MAN".

nothing but the ruined cities of earth for 1000 years. The REAL 1000 years between the first and 2nd resurrection.

in Christ,

bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ed's Evangelical Eschatological Message:

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

Five Judgements

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46,
2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart (in 1997) where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[BobRyan]

And now ... the Millennium


Rev 20:4-5 shows the ”First Resurrection” Which is the resurrection of the saints the “dead in Christ” as Paul says in 1Thess 4 at our “Gathering together to Him” 2Thess 2:1-4 a the “Coming of the Lord” (Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 point that out).

Rev 19 says that the living wicked are destroyed by fire and by the sword that comes from Christ “a the coming of the Lord” – it says “The rest were killed by the sword” that comes from Christ.

At that time Christ raptures the church (as He promised in John 14) and we are taken to heaven both the living AND the dead (raised at the First Resurrection). So what about the earth? Does the Bible describe earth as left without humans, dead corpses from one end of earth to another? No one left to bury the dead? Cities all destroyed? Really?

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

 

[BobRyan]

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh



Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.






Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.



Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


] Zeph 1:18[/b]
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 [/b]The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, [/b][/quote]


It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.


And yet this is “before” the Great White Throne judgment and the final burning in the lake of Fire and brimstone of all raised in the 2nd resurrection – who then suffer the 2nd death – which is the lake of fire and brimstone. So this condition is indeed “temporary”.

Isaiah 24
22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Those who reject the millenium or the first resurrection rapture described in Rev 20 often declare that such conditions as we see described here -
can not exist and should be ignored.

 

[BobRyan]

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind

Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.


5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.[/b]
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Millennium – a time without a single human remaining alive. Not a glorious place to live - but a
place where birds feeding on rotting corpses of mankind. And yet it is temporary – only lasting for 1000 years.

This feast of the birds we see described again in Rev 19 where the lamb destroys certain of mankind


Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killedwith the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh

Bad deffinition of 'Millennium'.

That causes to many conflicts with prophetic scriptures in Isaiah,
Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Revelation, Psalms, etc.

Try: 'Millennium' - a literal/physical 1,000 years
in which a physical Jesus rules on a physical Throne of
David in a physical Jerusalem over an inhabited physical earth.

For those interested: see how many times
I talk about the 'Millennial Messanic Kingdom' - Hellom
you gotta read my stuff to figure it out.
But instead, remember the Baptist Doctrine of
Compentency - (if you can string a few words together
on the internet BB) then you are compentent to get God's
message(s) from the Bible and figure out the eschatology
(Doctrine of Last Things) God's wants you to have.

It takes longer than you think. I've spent a lot of 55 years
figuring this all out with the Guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Been studying it more since i retired -- I'm 64 now
and crammin' for finals

 

[BobRyan]

Millennium - a literal 1000 years between the first and 2nd resurrection. First resurrection described in both Rev 20 and 1Thess 4.

The STARTING event is descrbed in Rev 19 "the FEAST of the birds" (Ez 32 AND Rev 19) is described there and the fact that the "REST were SLAIN" after the beast and false prophet were destroyed. This "STARTING" point is the same that we see in all the OT texts describing the desolate earth during the 1000 years between the first and 2nd resurrection.

the 1000 years themselves are only mentioned in Rev 20.

going to Ezekiel's temple to "imagine" a 1000 years does not cut it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

There are four possible Basic Approaches
to Prophecy. All of them are believed by some
Christians:

Preterism (past)
Historicism (now)
Futurism (future)
Idealism (timeless)

Preterism - the Tribulation Period has already taken place.

Historicism - the Tribulation Period started in
the 4th century (301-400AD) in events pertaining
to Constantine & his Christianization of the Roman Empire
and continues until the Second Coming.

Fururism - most prophetic events will take
place in the future especially: Tribulation Period,
Second Coming, & Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom.

Idealism - there is no specific timing for events,
the prophecies of the New Testament are to
be understood spiritually (they are still Literal & REAL)
not physically.

There are three basic relationships between the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom and the Second Coming
of Messiah Jesus:

a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

a-mill - 'no mill' - the millinnial Messanic Kingdom
is to be interpeted real, literal, and spiritual

pre-mill - the physical Second Coming of Messiah Jesus
will be before the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

post-mill - mankind will set up a physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom
worth of Christ who will then have His Second Coming

Preterism (past) can lead only to:
a-mill
post-mill
(it cannot lead to pre-mill because the Millennium
hasn't happened yet)

Historicism (now) can lead to all three x-mills
a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

Futurism (future) and only be:
pre-mill
post-mill
(if you are a-mill then likely you are Idealistic or Peteristic)

Idealism (timeless) can only be:
a-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
so is the second coming)
post-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
but the second coming is physical
(pre-mill cannot be because it calls for a physical
Millennial Messanic Kingdeom and a physical Second
Coming)

 

[jilphn1022]

post 108 John 14:3

I have a question. I have read that verse and have memorized it and I cannot see where you are seeing a pre-tribulation rapture in this verse.

To me,as a simple woman sees this verse given us believers a promise that Jesus is going to come again. I don't see a time line in this passage.

Would you please explain where in this verse says Jesus comes to get us BEFORE the tribulation let alone referring to a rapture. Thank you!

 

[BobRyan]

What verse - Matt 24?


Matt 24
9 "" Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name.[/b]
10 ""At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.
11 ""Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.
12 ""Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold.
13 "" But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

14 ""This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.

15 ""Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand),
16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains;
17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house.
18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak.
19 ""But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
20 ""But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath.
21 For [b]then there will be a great tribulation[/b], such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.
22 ""Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.



23 "" Then if anyone says to you, "Behold, here is the Christ[/b],' or " There He is,' do not believe him.
24 ""For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
25 ""Behold, I have told you in advance.


26 ""So if they say to you, "Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, "Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them.
27 "" For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 "" Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


VS 29 would be "key" if you want to know whether the

appearing of Christ and our gathering togethe to him

OR

the Tribulation

happens first.

But of course -- I am just a simple "software janitor"

 

[Ed Edwards]

...
Jesus is going to come get me (John 14:3) and
the rest of the Church Age saved chosen elect saints
BEFORE the Tribulation Period.

John 14:3 does NOT say "pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection"

John 14:3 does NOT say "no pretribulation
rapture/resurrection".

My hope is a Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection.
I know wether I live or die before the
Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection, I shall be in
the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection.
John 14:3 definetly does NOT contradict
the Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection..


I wrote this 10-12 years ago:
----------------------------------
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

I. The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):

0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15

1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44

2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)

Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

II. The time line according to Revelation:

0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5

III. The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:

0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)

1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away

2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)

3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8

Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

-------------------------------

1 Corinthians 16:22d (KJV1769 Edition):
... Maranatha! :thumbs:

1 Corinthians 16:22d (TNIV = Today's New International Version)
... Come, Lord! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.

Two questions --

What percentage of Christians were holding to "pretrib rapture" in the 1700's and early 1800's?

Question two - do you consider the Catholic church to be "Kindred" with 60% hodling to PTR?

Or do you mean "protestant" Anglican, Lutheran, etc?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

....

But of course -- I am just a simple "software janitor"

I win I'm a RETIRED "software sanitation engineer".


:jesus: SAVES! (often & reboots occassionaly)

If I crash today, Jesus will reboot me at the
Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection!

 

[BobRyan]

Requirements! If those guys could just come up with perfect use cases at the start the world would be a better place! Perfect code always follows perfect use cases that document all boundary conditions.

At least that is a story I heard around a campfire once.

Scenario 1

Actor (Christian)

Input -

Reads Matt 24

Matt 24
29 ""But [b]immediately after the tribulation[/b] of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and [b]they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDSOF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect[/b] from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Your turn.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Question two - do you consider the Catholic church
to be "Kindred" with 60% hodling to PTR?

No. I said 'kindred Christians'. I don't think most
RCC folk are 'kindred Christians'

What percentage of Christians were holding
to "pretrib rapture" in the 1700's and early 1800's?

I did a poll when I was in High School in 1762 ...
(just a funnin' )

There was as many believing in the
pretribulation rapture/resurrection as
believed in the postribulation only
rapture/resurection, which is none.
They just didn't have beliefs about it yet.

There were no pre-millinnial views popular from
325AD to 1500AD.

I'll say one more thing & quit:

First 'one more thing':
All my pretribulation rapture/resurrection
viewpoints come from the Bible which was
completed by 100AD.

Second 'one mor ething':
The word 'rapture' is Biblical
and comes from the Latin Vulgate
of about 490AD ('Rapture the Latin Transatlion of
"harpazo" which is translated in the KJV1769
as 'caught up'.

 

[BobRyan]

I always argue that the church is rapture in 1Thess 4 according to (fulfillment of) THE promise Christ gives in John 14.

So - no problem with the rapture.

I just see it as post trib - the one and only event Christ points to in John 14.

As for premill being popular after the 1500's --

Read Walter Martin's book "Kingdom of the Cults" in the section on Adventism where he says there is no excuse for labeling them as a cult - he also notes that the MAIN objection to Millerites and Adventists in the 1800's was that they were PREMillennial at at time when almost no one else in Christendom was!

 

[Eliyahu]

Second 'one mor ething':
The word 'rapture' is Biblical
and comes from the Latin Vulgate
of about 490AD ('Rapture the Latin Transatlion of
"harpazo" which is translated in the KJV1769
as 'caught up'.

Then where is the rapture of the church mentioned in RE?

If Jesus was caught up in 12:5, and 2 witnesses ascended up in Re 11:12,

where is the scene of the rapture of the whole church described in Rev?

Isn't that the moment which the whole church has been anticipating and eager to see and experience so much for 2000 years?

For the 2 witnesses, even the enemies were watching over them. Can you show anything like that? Don't repeat Re 7 which shows the great multitude coming out of the Tribulation, not by Rapture.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Compare the new thread (from myself) - 'Resurrection, Saints and Wicked'