Pre-tribulation rapture

[BobRyan]

AFTER the END of the literal 1000years

5. Satan loosed for a little season to deceive the Nations - Revelation 20:7-8!

6. The final battle of God and Magog! - Revelation 20:8-9!

7. Satan cast into the lake of Fire. - Revelation 20:10!

8. The Great White Throne of Judgment! - Revelation 20:11-15!

 

[BobRyan]

1 Peter 1:13 (Geneva Bible):
Wherefore, girde vp the Ioynes of your minde:
bee sober, and trust perfectly on
that grace that is brought vnto you,
in the reuelation of Iesus Christ,

When is God's grace brought into us?

At the revelation of Jesus Christ

On that much we agree.

Christ points to it in John 14 "I WILL come again".

Paul points to it in 1Thess 4 AND in 2Thess 2

Peter says it is the ENTIRE focus of the church.

John describes it in detail in Rev 19 and 20 showing us "THE FIRST RESURRECTION" as he looks forward to the future.

And Matt 24 gives it to us in DETAILED sequence telling us "AFTER the Tribulation of those days... he gathers his elect".

Impossible to miss.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Ok - so premill at least (literal - real 1000 years)

No pre-trib -- at least.

Well that is something anyway.

I'll take it.

in Christ,

Bob

For your Info, I believe this:

Rapture of the partial portion of believers in the middle of 7 years Tribulation.

There will be remaining Remnant Believers who glorify God at the time of the Rapture.

Re 13 shows the struggle by those Remnant Believers which continues until the Rescue Operation in Re 19. They might have been very much leukwarm believers in the beginning, but later on will be changed to be great believers, enduring the Tribulation.

Those Remnant believers will be delivered by the Rescue Operation by Lord Jesus Christ in Re 19.

I don't believe that there will be Zero-th Resurrection before the First Resurrection. ( 20:4-5)

 

[BobRyan]

Ok - so the FIRSt resurrection of Rev 20 is at the 2nd coming in your view -- and the pre-rapture you have (at what point in scripture) occurs before the Rev 19 event -- and then the Rev 19 event along with resurrection and rapture gets all the saints to heaven?

Is this where you see Christ's John 14:1-3 promise being fulfilled? Two rapture events and a full resurrection at the Rev 20:4-5 point?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mid Trib Rapturist person//I don't believe that there
will be Zero-th Resurrection before the First Resurrection. ( 20:4-5)//

Me neither. I believe the First Resurrection is in two parts.
The two parts are at the beginning and end of one of the
'Day of the Lord's.
The Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection of the
Church Age elect saints is at the beginning of
this Day of the Lord (also called Tribulation Period by
the Lost folk). The Post-tribulation Rapture/Resurrection
of the Jewish Tribulation saints is at the end of
the Day of the Lord.
Note before the Tribulation Jesus comes to get His own;
after the Tribulation Jesus comes to wup Antichrist tail.

BTW, some people seem to think that somehow
FIRST is related to and equal to 'one and only'.

I had my 64th birthday anniversery in Sept 07.
First I had 63 each birthday anniverseries.
Here 'first' has some 63-ness about it.

So it seems easy to me to see that there is absolutely
nothing that changes FIRST RESURRECTION if there
are multiple (more than one) parts.

 

[jilphn1022]

Gerhard Ebersoehn

Thanks for your reply! I sure hope that you keep posting on this fine messageboard!

 

[BobRyan]

Mid Trib Rapturist person//I don't believe that there
will be Zero-th Resurrection before the First Resurrection. ( 20:4-5)//

Me neither. I believe the First Resurrection is in two parts.

First First.

Followed by the "second first"???

The only reason to use that doublespeak is because you are left with Rev 20:4-5 talking about "THE FIRST resurrection" right where you need it to say "THIS IS THE SECOND RESURRECTION" Ed.

You have to admit - we can all see that part of the puzzle clearly.

The two parts are at the beginning and end of one of the
'Day of the Lord's.
The Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection of the
Church Age elect saints is at the beginning of
this Day of the Lord (also called Tribulation Period by
the Lost folk). The Post-tribulation Rapture/Resurrection
of the Jewish Tribulation saints is at the end of
the Day of the Lord.

Here again we have another huge clue that your view is flawed.

THE MAIN resurrection for ALL SAINTs in ALL time - you have taking place "BEFORE THE TRIBULATION of those days the Lord will gather His elect"

--as the MAIN focus of the church -
- as the REAL "FIRST resurrection" that all should focus on.
Note before the Tribulation Jesus comes to get His own;
after the Tribulation Jesus comes to wup Antichrist tail.

But instead John tells us that the POST TRIB resurrection+rapture "AFTER the Tribulation of those days... he gathers the elect" is in fact THE FIRST resurrection.

BTW, some people seem to think that somehow
FIRST is related to and equal to 'one and only'.

I had my 64th birthday anniversery in Sept 07.

How many 64th birthdays did you have AFTER Sept 07?

How many 64th birthdays did you have BEFORE??

If you were to take a video of Sept 7 and say "THIS is a video of Sept 7 of my 64th birthday" would PROPER context lead us to think that you INTENDED your hearers to think of this as "YOUR SECOND 64th birthday"??

Not even remotely!

Exegesis demands that we admit that the INTENT in the text for the READER is to accept REv 20:4-5 as "THE FIRST" resurrection not as the "SECOND FIRST resurrection".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[jilphn1022]

Ed Edwards

Let us look at page 28 your post #271 on Oct 6,2007. You made a list of questions with your answers that you have already done in 1998.

I was impressed with your reply to question #19 1E)

The question was : What are the implications on you,your family,your friends,your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

Your answer: They will probably be disapointed(disappointed) in me that i(I) didn't see that God ahd blessed them with the gift of martyrdom.

Ed Edwards, I have good news for you although I am a post-tribulationist and also believe there will be believers who will be put to death because of their faith in Jesus,but not all saints will die during this time of testing. Remember the verse that says "those who are ALIVE and remain. This is talking about the Christians who endured the tribulation and will be alive at His second coming.

There are Christians and non-Christians who have been beheaded in our lifetime.

 

[Ed Edwards]

//If you were to take a video of Sept 7 and
say "THIS is a video of Sept 7 of my 64th birthday"
would PROPER context lead us to think that
you INTENDED your hearers to think of this
as "YOUR SECOND 64th birthday"??//

Bad example.
I stayed up after midnight the night before my birthday - it
was the day of my 64th birthday. I had a private party
with my wife. Later in the day, next evening, I had
a 64th Birthday Party with some family & friends.
Both Parties were Birthday Parties - both were held
on my Birthday.

The 7-year long 'week', the 70th Week of Daniel
is the Tribulation Period. It can be called (and is
called in the scripture):

a day
a week
7-years (well two each 3½-year periods)

The half-week is called in scripture:

half a week
42 months (42=12months per year times 3½-years
time (1) times (2), and half a time

Go look for these terms in the KJV:

42 months; 'time, times, and half a time'; 'half a week'
it shows up 7 times.

I'll do it for you.

"Exegesis demands" is a phrase one should not use around
a bunch of Baptists. He who specifies what 'exegesis demands'
sure does sound Popish


// There are Christians and non-Christians
who have been beheaded in our lifetime.//

Half the Christian Martyrs died since I was born

 

[Ed Edwards]

Revelation 6:10-11 (KJV1611):
And they cried with a lowd voice, saying, How long,
O Lord, holy and true, doest thou not iudge and
auenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were giuen vnto euery one
of them, and it was sayd vnto them, that they
should rest yet for a little season, vntill
their fellow seruants also, and their brethren
that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:21-22 (KJV1611):
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not
since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued: but for the elects sake,
those dayes shall be shortned.

These are parallel passages.
Both show early in the tribulation day
those born-again, mostly gentile, church age,
Christian elect saints who were raptured/resurrected
at the dawn of the tribulation day. They are talking
to Jesus (praying face-to-face) about the Jewish
Israeli elect saints who won't pray to God (yet).

 

[Ed Edwards]

'dispensation' refers to a recent discussion of what
different ages there might be. Most of it is done
outside the data in the Bible.

Here is Ed's Bible discussion of 'dispensation':

-----------------------------------
Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!
-------------------------------

If you like scriptures, I can back it all up.

And if you let me use a hymn book:

There is plenty of Room in the Family!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is a West Wall Cam
(West Wall, the west side of Mount Mariah
/AKA: Temple Mount/ where Jews pray for:

1. restoration of the Temple
2. return of the Daily Sacrifice
3. Peace for Yisrael.

Who ever brings these three things
will be called 'Messiah'.

IMHO right after Jesus comes to get me, just
before the Start of the Tribulation Judgement Time,
The Two Witnesses (Revelation 11) will show up -
right there on the west wall, I betcha!

If I see them, then Jesus will come get me using
the evil men's head lobbing devise

:jesus: is #1
:godisgood: all the time.

 

[BobRyan]

//If you were to take a video of Sept 7 and
say "THIS is a video of Sept 7 of my 64th birthday"
would PROPER context lead us to think that
you INTENDED your hearers to think of this
as "YOUR SECOND 64th birthday"??//

Bad example.
I stayed up after midnight the night before my birthday - it
was the day of my 64th birthday. I had a private party
with my wife. Later in the day, next evening, I had
a 64th Birthday Party with some family & friends.

Actually the point remains when looking to the future and identifying that point as does John -- then

"Friends Sept 6 will be my 64th birthday".

As John looks into the future and says of that FUTURE event "THAT is THE FIRST resurrection".


It can not be argued that the writer MEANS to convey to his reader regarding that FUTURE event "Sept 6th will be my third 64th birthday".

Neither will the argument hold that John means to say to his reader "LOOK here is the point of the SECOND First resurrection" as he looks to that future point in time.

In your example you mean to say "I had one of my 64th birthday parties"

Both Parties were Birthday Parties - both were held
on my Birthday.

And Had John used your plural language that you just used with your readers to say "This is one of the first resurrections" your argument might have stood.

Instead your own post to show PLURAL PARTIES in the language of "BOTH parties" and "Birthday Parties" merely exposes again the CONTRAST where John does NOT use PLURAL RESURRECTIONS as all being THE FIRST. John does not say "Of the two FIRST resurrections this is the second"

It is a SINGLE event in John's account John 14:1-3 and it is a SINGLE event in John's account Rev 20:4-5 "THE FIRST resurrection"

And it agrees with the SINGLE event in Matt 24 "AFTER the tribulation of those days... he will gather His elect"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

//It is a SINGLE event in John's account John 14:1-3 ... //

Yes, one event = the pretribulation rapture/resurrection of
the saints.

// ... and
it is a SINGLE event in John's account Rev 20:4-5
"THE FIRST resurrection"//

Again, 'first' does not imply 'one and only one'.
If one knew the first thing about 'first' one would
realise it is DIFFERENT from 'one and only one'.
When people AND God want to talk about
'one and only one' they say 'one and only one' (or
something similiar).
Anyway, there are two (some say three) groups of
people in Revelation 20:4.

Note, two seperate groups:
A. those on thrones
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. those beheaded during the Great Tribulation
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

But it is a dual event in the following three places:

I.
​

2 Thessalonians 1:1 (NASB):
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him, ...

Note, two seperate events:
A. 'our gathering together to Him'
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. 'coming of our Lord Jesus Christ'
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

II.
​

Titus 2:13 (NASB):
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing
of the glory of our
great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

Note, two seperate events:
A. 'blessed hope'
The pretribulation rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
B. appearing of the glory
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

III.
​

Matthew 24:28-31 (NASB)
"But immediately after the tribulation of those days
THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON
WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS
WILL FALL from the sky, and
the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky,
and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the SON OF MAN
COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY
with power and great glory.
31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET
and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect
from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Things that seperate Matthew 24:29-30 from v.31:

A. the same split as in 2 Thess 2:1 & Titus 2:13

1) "GATHER TOGETHER His elect"
The pretribualtion rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
2) the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY
The post-tribulation rapture/resurrection of the Jewish Tribulation Saints

B "SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY"
The clouds are NOT water clouds here, they are Millions of
white robed Saints coming from heaven on white horses
-- at at distance of 1,000 or 100 miles, it will look like a
white water cloud.
This group are those who were raised at t he pretribualtion
rapture/resurrection of the mostly GentileChurch Age Saints
In Matthew 24:30 the Lord arrives with the saints after the
'Tribulation of that day'; In matthew 24:31 the Lord is picking
up the saints.

C. In Matthew 24:30 the folks on earth will morn
"then all the tribes of the earth will mourn".
In Matathew 24:31 the saints (elect) will rejoice
-- this is the part we are looking for, not the part where
Jesus wups up on the Antichrist & his folk.

 

[BobRyan]

Vs 30 and 31 of Matt 24 are JOINED as one with "AND".

And so we see that 2Thess 1 AND John 14:1-3 AND Matt 24:27-31 AND 1Thess 4... AND Rev 19-20 AND Titus 2:13 AND 1Peter 1:13 ARE ALL talking about the same "SINGULAR" focus of the NT saints.

Your idea of "First first resurrection" and "second first resurrection" reminds me of the movie where they talking about "First breakfast" and "second breakfast" but of course you are talking about "first first resurrection" and "second first resurrection" which seems like even MORE of a stretch.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Vs 30 and 31 of Matt 24 are JOINED as one with "AND".

And so we see that 2Thess 1 AND John 14:1-3 AND Matt 24:27-31 AND 1Thess 4... AND Rev 19-20 AND Titus 2:13 AND 1Peter 1:13 ARE ALL talking about the same "SINGULAR" focus of the NT saints.

Your idea of "First first resurrection" and "second first resurrection" reminds me of the movie where they talking about "First breakfast" and "second breakfast" but of course you are talking about "first first resurrection" and "second first resurrection" which seems like even MORE of a stretch.

in Christ,
Bob

Do you realize that your eschatology & my esthatology are different
based on the definition of 'and' four times, the definition
of 'day' twice, and the definition of 'first' once and only once?

And* just for good sport, in the KJV1611 Edition,
one of the 'and's (in Revelation 20:4) is an ampersand '&'
(strangely, that ampersand '&' isn't in the KJV1769 Edition).

* 'and' I used here which definately does NOT mean
//are JOINED as one//.

And for more good sport, look up 'kai' in a Greek/English
Dictionary and you find that it can mean 'and' and dozens of others
English words. The English term 'and' has some 7 meanings
in my dictionary, some of which have multiple sub-meanings
(and I can think of more, if I use set theory.

 

[TCGreek]

TCG's concept of the Bible on Dispensations:

1. Before the Fall of Adam

2. After the Fall of Adam up to Abraham.

3. From Abraham to Sinai

4. From Sinai to the Cross

5. From the Cross to the Rapture

6. From the Rapture to the MK

7. From the MK into Eternity

Ed, am I on target?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Brother TCGreek:
Your idea is as good as that anybody else
ever had.

Here are the Freedom Baptists defend:

Soul Freedom
Religious Freedom
Bible Freedom
Church Freedom

 

[BobRyan]

Do you realize that your eschatology & my esthatology are different
based on the definition of 'and' four times, the definition
of 'day' twice, and the definition of 'first' once and only once?

You have the incredible of problem of needing a "FIRST First Resurrection" and then a "SECOND FIRST resurrection" that is called merely "FIRST resurrection" instead of "SECOND FIRST Resurrection" as you believe it to be.

So clearly your view puts you in a huge pinch when it comes to Rev 20 in terms of where you "need" to take the text.

Now my challenge for you - IF you take My view - WHERE is the "pinch" for me that comes remotely close to the gymnastics you need in Rev 20 to get your view to work??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Do you agree the second reading, with
the future reference in parens is the
best reading of this verse?
(I.E. the 'first resurrection' is described in
verse 4 not here in verse 5).

First Reading, Revelation 20:5 (NASB):
The rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were completed.
This is the first resurrection.

Second Reading, Revelation 20:5 (NASB, parens added):
(The rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were completed.)
This is the first resurrection.

Do you believe the second reading is
better than the third reading?
(I.E. something is added, that the
'first resurrection' can be one and only
one resurrection.)

Third Reading, Revelation 20:5
(NASB, parens added, words added):
(The rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were completed.)
This is the one and only one first resurrection.

I believe the second reading is the correct
reading. Thus this verse allows for
more than one resurrection, phase of the
resurrection, part of the resurrection
or whatever. This reading does NOT
force multiple resurrections, they need to
be proved otherwise. I've already shown
that the multiple resurrections vary by purpose,
why, who, what, etc.

I note my 'Five Resurrectons' writing
has never been debated point by point
nor shown to be very far off.
Instead, people prefer their montra:
'First First resurrection, Second First
resurrection".

I didn't make it up, it was there all
the time, even in the original Greek.