Preaching the whole of scripture

[Iconoclast]

SHOWING THAT THE SCRIPTURE DOCTRINE OF PREDESTINATION SHOULD BE OPENLY PREACHED AND INSISTED ON, AND FOR WHAT REASONS

UPON the whole, it is evident that the doctrine of God's eternal and unchangeable predestination should neither be wholly suppressed and laid aside, nor yet be confined to the disquisition of the learned and speculative only; but likewise should be publicly taught from the pulpit and the press, that even the meanest of the people may not be ignorant of a truth which reflects such glory on God, and is the very foundation of happiness to man. Let it, however, be preached with judgment and discretion, i.e., delivered by the preacher as it is delivered in Scripture, and no otherwise. By which means, it can neither be abused to licentiousness nor misapprehended to despair, but will eminently conduce to the knowledge, establishment, improvement and comfort of them that hear. That predestination ought to be preached, I thus prove:-

I.-The Gospel is to be preached, and that not partially and by piece-meal, but the whole of it. The commission runs, "Go forth and preach the Gospel"; the Gospel itself, even all the Gospel, without exception or limitation. So far as the Gospel is maimed or any branch of the evangelical system is suppressed and passed over in silence, so far the Gospel is not preached. Besides, there is scarce any other distinguishing doctrine of the Gospel can be preached, in its purity and consistency, without this of predestination. Election is the golden thread that runs through the whole Christian system;


Part of an article I came across....I find this interesting....how about you?

here is the link
http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/classics/absolute_predestination5.html

 

[Iconoclast]

"(1) For the humiliation of our pride and the manifestation of Divine grace. God hath assuredly promised His favour to the truly humble. By truly humble, I mean those who are endued with repentance, and despair of saving themselves; for a man can never be said to be really penitent and humble until he is made to know that his salvation is not suspended in any measure whatever on his own strength, machinations, endeavours, free-will or works, but entirely depends on the free pleasure, purpose, determination and efficiency of another, even of God alone. Whilst a man is persuaded that he has it in his power to contribute anything, be it ever so little, to his own salvation, he remains in carnal confidence; he is not a self-despairer, and therefore he is not duly humbled before God; so far from it, that he hopes some favourable juncture or opportunity will offer when he may be able to lend a helping hand to the business of his salvation. On the contrary, whoever is truly convinced that the whole work depends singly and absolutely on the will of God, who alone is the author and finisher of salvation, such a person despairs of all self-assistance, he renounces his own will and his own strength, he waits and prays for the operation of God, nor waits and prays in vain. For the elect's sake, therefore, these doctrines are to be preached, that the chosen of God, being humbled by the knowledge of His truths, self-emptied and sunk, as it were, into nothing in His presence, may be saved in Christ with eternal glory. This, then, is one inducement to the publication of the doctrine, that the penitent may be made acquainted with the promise of grace, plead it in prayer to God, and receive it as their own

 

[Winman]

he waits and prays for the operation of God, nor waits and prays in vain. For the elect's sake, therefore, these doctrines are to be preached, that the chosen of God, being humbled by the knowledge of His truths, self-emptied and sunk, as it were, into nothing in His presence, may be saved in Christ with eternal glory. This, then, is one inducement to the publication of the doctrine, that the penitent may be made acquainted with the promise of grace, plead it in prayer to God, and receive it as their own

How is this different from what Arminians and non-Cals teach? An Arminian or non-Cal would say we need to pray and ask Jesus to save us, this seems to be exactly what this is saying.

The difference is that a Calvinist cannot have the confidence an Arminian or a non-Cal does. The Arminian or non-Cal believes that God desires to save all men, therefore if a person prays to God to save them, he most assuredly will.

The Calvinist on the other hand must hope he is one of the elect. If he was not chosen before the foundation of the world, his prayers are in vain. No amount of humility will help him, no amount of prayer.

If salvation is monergistic as Calvinism teaches, why would you teach a person to pray? It would seem to be more consistent to teach folks just to go about their business, and if God has chosen to save them, he will. If you are elect, prayer is not necessary, if you are not elect, prayer is vain.

So, this article seems like a contradiction to me.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Allow me....as Icon is not here:

it is part of a system of words and philosophy to undermine truth....compatiblism, determinism,contra-casual will, terms to avoid revealed truth.....redefine and fragment God's word...substitue mans vain reasoning, instead and in opposition to.
They put objective truth into the realm of subjective speculations which can be argued over....like this :thumbs:

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, (that would be me)but to them it is not given.(that is you) :wavey:

This is your philosophy...but scripture does not indicate this anywhere.
Since the fall man's reasoning (anything you believe) is twisted and perverted.

God's will is always done;
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

Because you do not understand it,and cannot actual deal with it....does not make it false...it just shows your understanding to be defective:laugh:

the Spirit is essential to a believer welcoming Divine truth.That is also why when someone is always getting truth wrong ...it is an indication that the person might be religious but unsaved.

This Could be you!! Examine your self Winman....and see if you indeed are in the Faith.....Lest happly you be found to fight even against God!

I am always here to humbly instruct anyone who sincerely wants to learn :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

How is this different from what Arminians and non-Cals teach? An Arminian or non-Cal would say we need to pray and ask Jesus to save us, this seems to be exactly what this is saying.

What non cals seem to miss is when the cal explains that God works through means which he has ordained.Any sinner who is saved prays that Jesus would save him,repents and believes the gospel,having faith in the blood.
They just understand that if they are brought to this condition, it is because God has enabled them to pass from death to life....because no one does this naturally.

The difference is that a Calvinist cannot have the confidence an Arminian or a non-Cal does. The Arminian or non-Cal believes that God desires to save all men, therefore if a person prays to God to save them, he most assuredly will.

This wrong idea does not change or alter God's decree.A person will not believe unless God enables him.

The Calvinist on the other hand must hope he is one of the elect. If he was not chosen before the foundation of the world, his prayers are in vain. No amount of humility will help him, no amount of prayer

.


The calvinist is already thankful that God has made Himself known as Lord and Saviour.His confidence comes from the covenant oath and promises given to all who will trust and obey, by a God given faith. Having the Spirit, he is now able to believe in the promises of God.1 cor2:14-15
Non elect persons do not have desires for humility or believing prayer. They might have a religion that is based on their own thoughts, rather than God's

If salvation is monergistic as Calvinism teaches, why would you teach a person to pray?

It is monergistic.....as the bible teaches and calvinists rightly believe.We learn and teach prayer because Jesus and the apostles have taught that this is part of the means of grace ,and a weapon to be used by believers.

It would seem to be more consistent to teach folks just to go about their business, and if God has chosen to save them, he will. If you are elect, prayer is not necessary, if you are not elect, prayer is vain.

This is a consistent wrong idea, put forth by persons who do not see grace as clear as they should. They seperate calling and election from what they are elected to,and called to....which is election unto a holy life as saints who delight in God's law word.

QUOTE]

So, this article seems like a contradiction to me.[/

:thumbsup:.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allow me....as Icon is not here:








This Could be you!! Examine your self Winman....and see if you indeed are in the Faith.....Lest happly you be found to fight even against God!

I am always here to humbly instruct anyone who sincerely wants to learn :thumbs:

Hos......Thanks for covering for me:thumbsup: This is by far ...one of your best posts!!! You offered several good verses....followed by some very fine quotes from a SOLID CONFESSION OF FAITH....WHICH ALSFFERED EXCELLENT VERSES:love2:

A person could read this ,and examine himself according to the verses offered.
Very nice:thumbsup: If a person was honest with themselves....they might say....you know...I have not really tried to study through a good confession of faith before.....I have just opposed them in my prideful ignorance, but now I think I will give them a good look being as many have profitted from them in times past. Thanks HOS.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

NP :thumbsup: They were not my quotes sir...the credit belongs to you :applause:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

A person will not believe unless God enables him.

This is not unique to Calvinism.

This is a consistent wrong idea, put forth by persons who do not see grace as clear as they should. They seperate calling and election from what they are elected to,and called to....which is election unto a holy life as saints who delight in God's law word.

I do not see how "grace" has anything to do with the answer to the idea he posed...We cannot broaden the definition to cover that question. Also, it may be "wrong" but if it is, you have not explained how it is wrong except by fiat, as it does seem to follow. Win does have a point...if Salvation or election are completely without condition on the part of the subject of salvation, then although decidedly "by their fruits" and "he that loveth not..." et. al. are great clues to whether or not one is one of the elect...But one cannot know whether they are or not; at least not inescapably. These are the secret things of God hidden from us no?

What non cals seem to miss is when the cal explains that God works through means which he has ordained.

This statement is also not unique to Calvinism.

The Calvinist on the other hand must hope he is one of the elect. If he was not chosen before the foundation of the world, his prayers are in vain. No amount of humility will help him, no amount of prayer

1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Those verses are in no way relevant to the statement made or posted by win...they don't contain any keywords whatsoever....If I were to be asked how one can be assured of knowing they are "elect" I might personally post a verse such as:

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

But that is because it is directly relevant to whether or not one can "KNOW" whether or not they are "elect" inasmuch as it sets clear parameters yes?

 

[convicted1]

If you preach predestination to the lost, you'll lose way over half of them. They could be thinking, "Am I not one of the elect"? "Did Jesus really die for me"? "Was my sins atoned for on the cross"?, etc.

We need to preach that through Adam man fell. Man had nothing to redeem himself with. That Jesus came, took the sin of the world upon Himself, and died, so that whosever shall believe upon Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. You leave the message there, and see how many will understand what you preached.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

If you preach predestination to the lost, you'll lose way over half of them. They could be thinking, "Am I not one of the elect"? "Did Jesus really die for me"? "Was my sins atoned for on the cross"?, etc.

We need to preach that through Adam man fell. Man had nothing to redeem himself with. That Jesus came, took the sin of the world upon Himself, and died, so that whosever shall believe upon Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. You leave the message there, and see how many will understand what you preached.

:thumbsup::applause:

 

[webdog]

If you preach predestination to the lost, you'll lose way over half of them. They could be thinking, "Am I not one of the elect"? "Did Jesus really die for me"? "Was my sins atoned for on the cross"?, etc.

We need to preach that through Adam man fell. Man had nothing to redeem himself with. That Jesus came, took the sin of the world upon Himself, and died, so that whosever shall believe upon Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life. You leave the message there, and see how many will understand what you preached.

On the flip side, if they do approach everyone with the fact Christ died for them, took their punishment for their sins without knowing for sure if He did in fact die for them, take their punishment, and give them faith, they could very well be lying to their face. Oh I no the pet answer to this, "we don't know who the elect are". Well you sure better before you feed them what amounts to the cruelest, dishonest "good news" they will ever hear.

 

[convicted1]

On the flip side, if they do approach everyone with the fact Christ died for them, took their punishment for their sins without knowing for sure if He did in fact die for them, take their punishment, and give them faith, they could very well be lying to their face. Oh I no the pet answer to this, "we don't know who the elect are". Well you sure better before you feed them what amounts to the cruelest, dishonest "good news" they will ever hear.

Whether one believes in "FW" or "DoG" doesn't add up to a "hill of beans" to the lost. We need to explain to the lost that they are lost, lost due to their sins. That Jesus is the remedy for their sins. In Him, and Him alone, is where they can find peace for their souls.

BTW, as to your post? :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

Whether one believes in "FW" or "DoG" doesn't add up to a "hill of beans" to the lost. We need to explain to the lost that they are lost, lost due to their sins. That Jesus is the remedy for their sins. In Him, and Him alone, is where they can find peace for their souls.

BTW, as to your post? :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Agreed...that is why our doctrine is the only one where we can truthfully approach the lost with the true "Good News" without an asterisk attached.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Agreed...that is why our doctrine is the only one where we can truthfully approach the lost with the true "Good News" without an asterisk attached.

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I cannot embrace Calvinism...when sharing the "gospel" as they see it....they seem to be forced to say things to them that they don't necessarily believe to be true. Or they simply cannot tell them the WHOLE truth. They only can honestly claim that God Might have a desire for their salvation, that Christ Might have died for them, and there is a possibility that Grace and the forgiveness of sins is available. God Might love them (at least in any intelligible or meaningful sense). And the correct answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" is simply....nothing, nothing whatsoever, if God intends for you to be saved, you will be. "Do I have to believe in or accept Christ as my Saviour or repent of my sins to be born again?" correct answer: NO.

 

[webdog]

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I cannot embrace Calvinism...when sharing the "gospel" as they see it....they seem to be forced to say things to them that they don't necessarily believe to be true. Or they simply cannot tell them the WHOLE truth. They only can honestly claim that God Might have a desire for their salvation, that Christ Might have died for them, and there is a possibility that Grace and the forgiveness of sins is available. God Might love them (at least in any intelligible or meaningful sense). And the correct answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" is simply....nothing, nothing whatsoever, if God intends for you to be saved, you will be. "Do I have to believe in or accept Christ as my Saviour or repent of my sins to be born again?" correct answer: NO.

About 8 years ago I was a "calvie lite". When presented with this doctrine, and being the intellectual type, it made so much sense, particularly when I realized how many gifted preachers and authors held to this view, coupled with the many proof texts that are thrown around here daily. How could anyone disagree, I thought?

Two things made me second guess what I was being fed:

1. During one sermon, the powerpoint notes read in big letters JESUS LOVES YOU! I immediately thought, how can this be true? Surely not eveyone in this service was the "elect", after all "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". This is a lie being shown to those who are not "elect"!

2. How do I know my family is the "elect"? If God does not love my family as He loves me, you mean that I love my family more than God does? A God who IS love?!? I would give my life for my children and wife...but God didn't?!?

 

[Iconoclast]

Hos

you said;
1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Those verses are in no way relevant to the statement made or posted by win...they don't contain any keywords whatsoever....

If you understand them...they do....lets look again.....

Quote:
The Calvinist on the other hand must hope he is one of the elect. If he was not chosen before the foundation of the world, his prayers are in vain. No amount of humility will help him, no amount of prayer

.
The calvinist is already thankful that God has made Himself known as Lord and Saviour.His confidence comes from the covenant oath and promises given to all who will trust and obey, by a God given faith. Having the Spirit, he is now able to believe in the promises of God.1 cor2:14-15


Hos...what you miss here...and in other places....is that the Spirit allows the elect sheep to welcome and be a believing one......everyone believing-jn3;16
Your whosoever....is my Everyone believing

Saving faith and the ability to do so comes from the Spirit directly....so in my response I pointed him to the word of God,and the covenant promise itself as the basis of our seeking assurance....not looking to our :"inner child"...or anything we do, or do not do, .....The Spirit is given so that we can begin as new born babes to desire the sincere milk of the word....

the non elect cannot do so......I know you understand total depravity and mans complete inability as you have repeated that these understandings are not unique to calvinism:smilewinkgrin: So iot was not---keywords--- to be searching for...it was the big picture in view:thumbsup:



Non elect persons do not have desires for humility or believing prayer. They might have a religion that is based on their own thoughts, rather than God's

 

[Iconoclast]

About 8 years ago I was a "calvie lite". When presented with this doctrine, and being the intellectual type, it made so much sense, particularly when I realized how many gifted preachers and authors held to this view, coupled with the many proof texts that are thrown around here daily. How could anyone disagree, I thought?

Two things made me second guess what I was being fed:

1. During one sermon, the powerpoint notes read in big letters JESUS LOVES YOU! I immediately thought, how can this be true? Surely not eveyone in this service was the "elect", after all "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated". This is a lie being shown to those who are not "elect"!

2. How do I know my family is the "elect"? If God does not love my family as He loves me, you mean that I love my family more than God does? A God who IS love?!? I would give my life for my children and wife...but God didn't?!?

1] you should have questioned the first statement as we know that God loves sinners in Christ.....savingly....he is angry the wicked everyday.
The love of God is In Christ.

2] unless you believe that God loves those in hell forever....you have a massive contradiction on your hands. Saying it is all up to the sinner ,and God has done all that he can....does not change what God does, or does not do...he changes not.....so how do you reconcile your own 2] quote with the fact that Jesus will send multitudes to hell on the last day?

 

[HeirofSalvation]

2. How do I know my family is the "elect"? If God does not love my family as He loves me, you mean that I love my family more than God does? A God who IS love?!? I would give my life for my children and wife...but God didn't?!?

Moreover, you would be wrong even sinful in your sentiments if you DID!! You would be questioning God's perfect will and, after all, who art thou oh WD to reply against God? If you were in any way possibly upset at the idea that they were not "elect" you would be in a position of thinking God's perfect wisdom as being suspect. Is it not his "right", well within the perview of his holiness to damn whom he pleases? Your daughter or son or Mother not-withstanding? Indeed, one MUST "hate" their Father and Mother to be a disciple! Intense Covenant Theology always makes more sense IMO if you are not a Baptist, but a Presby or some other Paedo-Baptist who is able to view the covenant from a more family-based perspective vis-a-vis Schaeffer even Calvin et. al.

 

[Iconoclast]

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I cannot embrace Calvinism...when sharing the "gospel" as they see it....they seem to be forced to say things to them that they don't necessarily believe to be true. Or they simply cannot tell them the WHOLE truth. They only can honestly claim that God Might have a desire for their salvation, that Christ Might have died for them, and there is a possibility that Grace and the forgiveness of sins is available. God Might love them (at least in any intelligible or meaningful sense). And the correct answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" is simply....nothing, nothing whatsoever, if God intends for you to be saved, you will be. "Do I have to believe in or accept Christ as my Saviour or repent of my sins to be born again?" correct answer: NO.

What you describe is a defective attempt at a gospel...and here is why;

Agreed, this is one of the reasons I cannot embrace Calvinism...when sharing the "gospel" as they see it

Not having come to this teaching as truth.....you could not really present it accurately ....you will present a caricature [more than likely} just look at these discussions...the cals always object to the falsehoods....the arminians also try to claim this also.

A person ....shares... a peanut and jelly sandwich.....an ambassador declares the terms of the King.

.they seem to be forced to say things to them that they don't necessarily believe to be true.

No...not at all. Instead ...we study to accurately say what scripture declares

God loves sinners in Christ.A multitude will be saved
Any sinner who believes by God given faith will be saved
The Spirit brings dead sinners to life
The Spirit works through the word and prayer....

We do not lie,and say what the bible does not say....

I saw a tract of noahs ark in the flood.....it had a life preserver on the side saying....smile ...god loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life...which was visible to those perishing in the flood water....

then the tract asked questions about it....

They only can honestly claim that God Might have a desire for their salvation, that Christ Might have died for them, and there is a possibility that Grace and the forgiveness of sins is available.

No....this is more in line with what you believe...Potential....

We believe , and teach that God in Christ has provided a perfect and complete salvation to all who believe. It is actual and accepted by the Father.
Jesus has a multitude he is seeking and saving.....and all of them will in time come to Him savingly....Everyone of them,and none of them will be lost....God is not willing that any of His will be lost....he is longsuffering with the sin and filth going on in this world until the last elect sheep is brought in!

And the correct answer to the question "what must I do to inherit eternal life" is simply....nothing, nothing whatsoever, if God intends for you to be saved, you will be[/

it is true they cannot do anything to earn it.....however if God is going to save them they will believe His word as Jesus explained in jn 10;

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Jesus preached and taught this doctrine...here is election and prredestination clearly opened by Him...

 

[agedman]

What you describe is a defective attempt at a gospel...and here is why;

Icon,

Do you ever get tired of correcting the misapplication, misdirection, and misappropriation of Scriptures by those who argue against the Calvinistic view?