Predestination

I believe in predestination. What I don't agree with calvinists on is the means by which things are predestined. Predestine means to determinie beforehand. You can determine something beforehand without being the cause. I can see a car driving right toward another person knowing what the end result will be.
Take sin for instance. The sin I commited yesterday was predestined to happen...but God didn't cause me to sin. Taken to it's logical conclusion, every calvinist would have to come to the same conclusions johnp does, that nothing we do happens without God being the first cause of that action. Those who come to Christ are predestined to do so, not becuase God zapped them, and "irresistably" brought them in, but based on how God designed us, and His plan for us to come to Him.
If we could all just grasp the notion that God exists in the past, present and future...in all places...all at once, at the same moment, things would start to come into focus a little clearer.

 

Basically, you equate predestination with foreknowledge/omniscience. I take it a step further in that God certainly knew that you were going to sin (foreknowledge), but he could have stopped you from sinning through a myriad of ways - he could have put obstacles in your way to keep you from a certain temptation, or he could have worked extra grace in your heart to help you resist that temptation, or he could have done it in a way that neither of us can imagine. But he chose not to; he allowed you to sin. And his choosing to do this was part of his plan - his predetermined plan - i.e., predestination.

And why do you think Cals must come to the logical conclusion that God authors sin? What is illogical about God not working sin into people but rather working only righteousness?

 

Nor do I. There is nothign "pre" or "fore" with an omnitemporal / atemporal God.

To this I reply a hearty "Amen"!
Having said that, this very same notion holds true with faith. To deny that, would mean you would have to deny what you have said here.

Since we don't hold to the same notion of who the "elect" are (or understaned it differently)...or the purpose for and of election (God's sovereign will), I can't comment on this. Oh...too late, I already did

Again, since I believe the "elect" are true Israel, I agree with your statement to a point.

You know what, I agree with this too! I would also add those words are given and spoken to a creation that is bound by those words and time in general. Since God is omni / atemporal, these words cannot apply to Him.

 

I base someone or something being predestined based on...
God's omniscience
God's omnipresence
God's omnitemporalness
God's omnipotence

 

I would still like a response to my questions here:

It doesn't have to be from you in particular, Webdog; it can be from anyone who thinks Cals must come to that "logical conclusion".

 

God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.

 

Well, I agree with what you said above, except for the bolded italics part. So taking that sentence out and looking at the others, how is it that God must work sin into the hearts of people in order to be sovereign and predestine all that comes to pass?

 

God is sovereign. Nothing can happen if it goes against His will, plan, or purpose. God is never disappointed or grieved. God learns nothing from creation, all was known by Him before creation 'cause He planned it. And He never changes His mind.

 

Sorry Blammo, I'm still not seeing it. What in those statements necessitates that God must work sin into people?

 

If someone sins, and that goes against God's will, then God is not sovereign over that person. Unless you assume that it is God's will that people sin.

If someone sins, and God did not plan for people to sin, then people are sinning outside of God's plan. Unless you assume that God intended for people to sin.

Before I go on, do you think God's sovereignty only applies to salvation?

 

What if men did not sin? Can a man do anything God has not predetermined? And doesn't predetermined mean caused?

Romans 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

What are you trying to prove to me when you bring these verses up?

 

My answer to your last question is 'No' - there is not one square inch of this universe outside of God's sovereignty.

Looking at your first two statements, you need to consider something. Was it God's predetermined plan that Jesus die on the cross at the hands of evil men? See Acts 2:23 and 4:28. Could God have planned another way of salvation without using the means of evil men and their evil actions? Yes, he could certainly have designed another way of salvation, if he wanted to. But the cross was his predetermined plan for the way of salvation, and along with that plan, evil men and their actions would accomplish what God planned beforehand. And he did this without violating his holiness; he did this without working sin into the hearts of those evil men - they acted on their own desires. But it was certainly in his decretive (ordaining; predestined) will that these evil men did what they did, in order to bring about the glory of the cross.

So again, tell me how I am being inconsistent? Or better yet, tell us how Scripture is inconsistent when it proclaims both of these truths in Acts 2:23 and 4:28?

 

So you believe, like I do, that God predestinates according to foreknowledge?

 

Did God have to cause Adam and Eve to disobey, or did He foresee their disobedience? How could He know, unless He caused it or forsaw it?