Predestined as What?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Predestination, as explained by the Calvinist, seems to always to be presented as a product of necessity. In other words. if in fact one is predestined, there is no possible escape of it being so. Nothing had any effect on that course or can alter their destiny, for all is foreordained to come to pass and that by necessity from eternity past to eternity future.

This raises an interesting point. If such a view is true, and one finds that he was predestined by necessity to salvation, how could he have ever been anything else than saved? Think about that for a minute. If one was ever lost, that would be contrary to his predestined salvation, for necessity demands no variation from a prescribed course. Necessity never changes. It is fixed and written in stone. There is not a shadow of turning from a predestined path.

I would like for one holding to predestination as ones necessitated end, to explain to me how one can ever be something other than the necessitated end that one was predestined for? How could one predestined to salvation ever be a sinner, for if he was a sinner at any time it would have had to be just as necessitated for him to be a sinner. If he was necessitated to be a sinner, such necessity could not be altered, for necessity is necessity, and can not be altered or changed, right?

 

[billwald]

The error of Reformed theology is two part. First, even though Reformed theology admits that there is no test for election we consistantly insist that one's election can be identified by acceptance of the Reformed confessions and membership in a Reformed congregation. There is no Reformed theological argument against the possibility that God has elected Catholics and not Reformed people.

Second, Reformed believers, like the rest of Christianity, refuse to see that throughout Bible history the elect are (only) a sub set of that dispensation's worshipping community. We are to announce the Gospel (Good News), not make regulations for becomming (?) elect, getting saved.

In this dispensation, the Christian community is God's plan for living on this earth in this life, a social contract between God and Christians. Being a part of the Christian community conveys social and psychological and other benefits regardless of one's election or not being elect.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Bill, you give me plenty of fodder for discussion but I fail to see how it applies directly to what I was trying to ask. I may not be understanding you completely and I am sure I always fail at presenting questions in the clearest light. I will try and address some of your comments either way when I return. I will be out of pocket for a day or so. Thanks for your input.

 

[J.D.]

Second, Reformed believers, like the rest of Christianity, refuse to see

We all missed it, but you got it. Is your name Harold Camping?

 

[tragic_pizza]

The error of Reformed theology is two part. First, even though Reformed theology admits that there is no test for election we consistantly insist that one's election can be identified by acceptance of the Reformed confessions and membership in a Reformed congregation. There is no Reformed theological argument against the possibility that God has elected Catholics and not Reformed people.

And the way nonReformed people decide someone is "saved" or "unsaved" is whether or not they've been dunked and have said the right things to evidence an intellectual assent to the idea of being "saved."

As to the last sentence, that makes zero sense. Why wouldn't God desire reconciliation with all of God's creation???

Second, Reformed believers, like the rest of Christianity, refuse to see that throughout Bible history the elect are (only) a sub set of that dispensation's worshipping community. We are to announce the Gospel (Good News), not make regulations for becomming (?) elect, getting saved.

In this dispensation, the Christian community is God's plan for living on this earth in this life, a social contract between God and Christians. Being a part of the Christian community conveys social and psychological and other benefits regardless of one's election or not being elect.

More gobbledygoop. Dispensation? What? Who says all that silliness? Certainly not Reformed theologians.

 

[webdog]

And the way nonReformed people decide someone is "saved" or "unsaved" is whether or not they've been dunked and have said the right things to evidence an intellectual assent to the idea of being "saved."

I'm not reformed and I cannot "decide" who is saved or not, only God can. Calvinists mistakenly try with their "P".

More gobbledygoop. Dispensation? What? Who says all that silliness? Certainly not Reformed theologians.

Try the Bible.

 

[billwald]

>If such a view is true, and one finds that he was predestined by necessity to salvation, how could he have ever been anything else than saved?

That's true. The means and timing of one's salvation is also predestined. Regeneration preceeds conversion. The Holy Spirit regenerates those who are predestined to be saved. The regenerated person responds to his regeneration and, in his mind, converts by his free choice.


The problem with Reformed theology is the pronouns. The congregation reads the Heidelberg Confessions and assumes all the pronouns referring to good stuff refer to them and the pronouns referring to the bad stuff are talking about other people. I this it would be a grand joke if it turns out that only Arminians were predestined to salvation and there is no Reformed theological argument against this possibility.

 

[tragic_pizza]

I'm not reformed and I cannot "decide" who is saved or not, only God can. Calvinists mistakenly try with their "P".

Hooey. You really need to be informed before you make conclusions. Preservation of the saints has nothing to do with "deciding" who is or isn't saved.

Try the Bible.

Try writing complete sentences and addressing the question like an adult.

 

[tragic_pizza]

>If such a view is true, and one finds that he was predestined by necessity to salvation, how could he have ever been anything else than saved?

That's true. The means and timing of one's salvation is also predestined. Regeneration preceeds conversion. The Holy Spirit regenerates those who are predestined to be saved. The regenerated person responds to his regeneration and, in his mind, converts by his free choice.


The problem with Reformed theology is the pronouns. The congregation reads the Heidelberg Confessions and assumes all the pronouns referring to good stuff refer to them and the pronouns referring to the bad stuff are talking about other people. I this it would be a grand joke if it turns out that only Arminians were predestined to salvation and there is no Reformed theological argument against this possibility.

*yawn.* Yeah, and the Heidelburg is the oooooooonly creed which informs Reformed theology. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...

 

[webdog]

Hooey. You really need to be informed before you make conclusions. Preservation of the saints has nothing to do with "deciding" who is or isn't saved.

You said, and I quote: "And the way nonReformed people decide someone is "saved" or "unsaved"

If you don't like "decide"...don't use it in a post.

Try writing complete sentences and addressing the question like an adult.

"Try the Bible." is a complete sentence. If you don't know that...as an adult... then "try grade school" first.

 

[tragic_pizza]

You said, and I quote: "And the way nonReformed people decide someone is "saved" or "unsaved"

If you don't like "decide"...don't use it in a post.

That's y'all's problem, not Reformed. NonReformed folk think that saying the right words and getting wet enough is the thing -- entirely a function of the will of man. That's where "decide" comes in, Binky.

"Try the Bible." is a complete sentence. If you don't know that...as an adult... then "try grade school" first.

Try complete thoughts, then, because smart-tailed three-sentence replies are beneath me.

"Dispensation" means squat. "Try the Bible" in re "dispensation" means twice squat, because to the Reformed mind, the Bible is a book of covenants, not "dispensations."

Honestly...

 

[webdog]

That's y'all's problem, not Reformed.

...or it's your problem that you are. Depends on how you look at it, huh?

NonReformed folk think that saying the right words and getting wet enough is the thing -- entirely a function of the will of man. That's where "decide" comes in, Binky.

*yawn*...strawman. Next?

Try complete thoughts, then, because smart-tailed three-sentence replies are beneath me.

Hard to believe coming from someone who uses "hooey", "squat" and "y'all's"

"Dispensation" means squat. "Try the Bible" in re "dispensation" means twice squat, because to the Reformed mind, the Bible is a book of covenants, not "dispensations."

There are no "dispensations" in the Bible? You can't be serious :laugh: Do you think I care what "the reformed mind" thinks? To quote you...it means "squat"!

 

[tragic_pizza]

...or it's your problem that you are. Depends on how you look at it, huh?

*yawn*...strawman. Next?

Hard to believe coming from someone who uses "hooey", "squat" and "y'all's"

There are no "dispensations" in the Bible? You can't be serious :laugh: Do you think I care what "the reformed mind" thinks? To quote you...it means "squat"!

Gee, your argument has convinced me.

:sleep:

I quit.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tragic_Pizza: I quit.

HP: We were just starting to have fun and learn about complete sentences, and you have to go and quit. Before you go, would you mind answering the question I posed at the start of this thread? I asked, "How could one predestined to salvation ever be a sinner." Give it a shot. (Before you challange my English, you had better ask Webdog in private first :thumbs: )

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: I'm not reformed and I cannot "decide" who is saved or not, only God can. Calvinists mistakenly try with their "P".

HP: Everyone’s beliefs are often so complex it is difficult to understand each other without many questions being asked. I am not sure if you mean you cannot decide whether or not you have received salvation, or if in fact you are just stating that a walk by faith is not the same as having absolute knowledge as God presently sees us all but we are not privy to. Possibly you mean something entirely different than either one of those ideas. Possibly you might be relating to the fact that the Calvinist seems ready to tell one they are saved by the words they just repeated. Can you explain further? Thanks.

 

[webdog]

HP: Everyone’s beliefs are often so complex it is difficult to understand each other without many questions being asked. I am not sure if you mean you cannot decide whether or not you have received salvation, or if in fact you are just stating that a walk by faith is not the same as having absolute knowledge as God presently sees us all but we are not privy to. Possibly you mean something entirely different than either one of those ideas. Possibly you might be relating to the fact that the Calvinist seems ready to tell one they are saved by the words they just repeated. Can you explain further? Thanks.

I meant we cannot "decide" someone is saved by their "fruit".

 

[tragic_pizza]

HP: We were just starting to have fun and learn about complete sentences, and you have to go and quit. Before you go, would you mind answering the question I posed at the start of this thread? I asked, "How could one predestined to salvation ever be a sinner." Give it a shot. (Before you challange my English, you had better ask Webdog in private first :thumbs: )

I would really rather not hash it around with someone whose mind is already shut like a steel trap on the subject.

Sin causes separation from God -- in some theological interpretations, sin and separation are synonomous. That separation is a function of our selves. Redemption is a function of God. Without the separation from our actions, redemption as an act of God would be unneccesary.

So without sin in the first place, redemption would be irrelevant.

I know you won;t bother to try and understand, as your mind is made up to the contrary. Please, however, be satisfied enough with the answer as to leave me alone.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: I meant we cannot "decide" someone is saved by their "fruit".

HP: OK. We are not God. Just the same God tells us in His Word that we can know others by their fruit. Our salvation, as well as our understanding of the salvation of others, is by faith, but our fruits are a clear indication, as I read Scripture, that we or others indeed are children of the Lord. Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

In the case of our own salvation we are to examine ourselves. What are you going to examine if not the fruit as exhibited by the intents of ones heart as exemplified by your works/fruits? 1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Was not John telling us that an examination of our fruits is indeed a way to judge ourselves? 1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Was not the Apostle James telling us to examine ourselves by our fruits, denoted as ‘works,’ by the following admonition? Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

I hope I am not reading you wrong here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

TP: Please, however, be satisfied enough with the answer as to leave me alone.

HP: Your wish is my command. If you desire to be left alone, a discussion group is the last place you should find yourself.

May you find the Lord rich to your soul.

 

[webdog]

What are you going to examine if not the fruit as exhibited by the intents of ones heart as exemplified by your works/fruits?

We still don't "decide" what's in a person's heart by their fruit. What's the basis to judge someone's fruit? The problem arises when we don't like the "taste" of another's fruit.