Preordained free choices

[Allan]

While we're in the 8s, how about 2:38-39?

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

As opposed to whom? As many as God will not call.

So then ALL of the people present there were to receive the promise and ALL of their children were to receive the promise and ALL those afar off were to receive that same promise of salvation- is this not what the scritpure states. So we should be able to (and with certainty just like Peter) know who the Elect are and specifically who God is calling.

...as many as the Lord will call... is not displaying God only calls some and not others because you have to strip it from the context of the people, their children and ALL who are afar off. They can not to God of or by themselves but God must initiate. This is known scripturally as the call of God based squarely in the gospel but operitive only when the Holy Spirit reveals that truth of the Gospel.

 

[Allan]

Allan , you can also give your take on Acts 4:28 as well .

No problem:

It is God alone that reveals truth to us. But we must choose to accept that truth or reject it once it has been revealed.

 

[Rippon]

Acts 4:28

From the HCSB : to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place .
From the NLT : But everything they did was determined beforehand according to Your will .

Evil men brought about what the Lord had already decreed . It's not about somekind of free-willer "foreknowledge" . The counsel of God's will determined that certain evil men that He raised up would be the instruments to carry-out what God had determined would be . Those men were God's instruments -- they served His purposes -- but they were responsible for their own wicked actions .

 

[npetreley]

So then ALL of the people present there were to receive the promise and ALL of their children were to receive the promise and ALL those afar off were to receive that same promise of salvation- is this not what the scritpure states. So we should be able to (and with certainty just like Peter) know who the Elect are and specifically who God is calling.

...as many as the Lord will call... is not displaying God only calls some and not others because you have to strip it from the context of the people, their children and ALL who are afar off. They can not to God of or by themselves but God must initiate. This is known scripturally as the call of God based squarely in the gospel but operitive only when the Holy Spirit reveals that truth of the Gospel.

IMO, this is not worthy of a response, but I'll respond against my better judgement.

The ALL is not all-inclusive, but is qualified by the statement "as many as God will call". That's plain language. The promise includes all who are afar off. All of whom? As many as God will call. As opposed to whom? As many as God will NOT call.

And where do you get the idea that Peter knew who the elect are, and who are not elect? That's nowhere in the text.

 

[whatever]

I know it speaks of Gods plan and I did acknowledge it but what I was stressing is that IN THAT PLAN Mans choice is there as well. I know the Calvinist belief enough to know your position regardings Gods plan so I didn't think I needed to state an already obvious point. But I did need to bring out Mans choice in involved in the things that God works together for our good. Acts 4:27-28 holds to the fulness of what I believe is scripturally theological.

You know, I don't even think you are trying. You did not bring out man's choice - it was in the original quote. That quote affirmed man's free choice. To act as if man's free choices were not affirmed by this Calvinist, and that you were pointing out something that this Calvinist was overlooking, is simply disingenuous at best.

 

[Allan]

You know, I don't even think you are trying. You did not bring out man's choice - it was in the original quote. That quote affirmed man's free choice. To act as if man's free choices were not affirmed by this Calvinist, and that you were pointing out something that this Calvinist was overlooking, is simply disingenuous at best.

Ok, then let me make it clearer.

God deciding every aspect of your life and man following along in free will - is the same as this illistration.

I have created a large complexe with multiple rooms and doors interconnecting. I have locked every door I don't want you to go through because I have preset exactly where I desire you to go, feel, do, and believe in accordance with each room I have set for you to enter. Now I bring you there and you enter following my preset path. I have given you multiple doors to choose from in each room but you can only open the one I want you to. So of your free will you just folow along that created, preset, path I predestined you to go on. That were ever or whatever you do is preordained by me for you to be. I created and caused and am the very reason for everything you have done.

Any third grade student can tell you that person has about as much free will as a robot or a rat in a maze.

There is no resposibility on the person whatsoever as he is only do what God has set for him to do (God made that person like they are - sin, unbelief, ect..). They can only do what God has created and set their path to. They will reject Him because He sets them TO reject Him and they accept Him because He created and sets them TO accept Him. God is the author of Sin and man damnation as much as He is the author of salvation.

 

[Allan]

IMO, this is not worthy of a response, but I'll respond against my better judgement.

The ALL is not all-inclusive, but is qualified by the statement "as many as God will call". That's plain language. The promise includes all who are afar off. All of whom? As many as God will call. As opposed to whom? As many as God will NOT call.

And where do you get the idea that Peter knew who the elect are, and who are not elect? That's nowhere in the text.

If you only looked at HALF of the verse then I could agree with you. But you seem to miss the first half.
Acts 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
The promise is to ALL those hearing what Peter said. How many were there? We know 3000 people were saved that day but were these the only ones within ear shot of Peter. AND we know this promise it to those same peoples children. Does Peter exclude ANY of those children, not according to the text. So if these two examples of who the promise is to includes the ALL there and ALL their children, it follows course the ALL that are afar off means just what it says about whome the promise is toward. But Peter sets the qualifier in to show WHY people would come to the promise. The many isn't set in the scripture to show a limited number but an abundant number (as many as the Lord our God will call). It follows content, context and sentence structure. There would be no need for Peter to tell them to repent if they were already regenerate for that would be a natural inclination. The command is given because they ARE NOT regenerate as of yet but they are being called toward that promise offered to them, their children, and all who are afar off...

 

[whatever]

Ok, then let me make it clearer.

God deciding every aspect of your life and man following along in free will - is the same as this illistration.

I have created a large complexe with multiple rooms and doors interconnecting. I have locked every door I don't want you to go through because I have preset exactly where I desire you to go, feel, do, and believe in accordance with each room I have set for you to enter. Now I bring you there and you enter following my preset path. I have given you multiple doors to choose from in each room but you can only open the one I want you to. So of your free will you just folow along that created, preset, path I predestined you to go on. That were ever or whatever you do is preordained by me for you to be. I created and caused and am the very reason for everything you have done.

Any third grade student can tell you that person has about as much free will as a robot or a rat in a maze.

There is no resposibility on the person whatsoever as he is only do what God has set for him to do (God made that person like they are - sin, unbelief, ect..). They can only do what God has created and set their path to. They will reject Him because He sets them TO reject Him and they accept Him because He created and sets them TO accept Him. God is the author of Sin and man damnation as much as He is the author of salvation.

That's not clearer. God does not present us with only one viable option and tell us to freely choose. You cannot possibly get that from the quote in the OP. You've got God locking doors to keep us from going through one that we might go through otherwise. The quote in the OP has no doors locked - there are 31 flavors from which we can freely choose, and none are secretly off-limits, even though the one that we will choose is already determined. Until your illustration can account for that truth, well, it's back to third grade I guess.

By the way, can your third grader explain how something can be created from nothing?

 

[Allan]

That's not clearer. God does not present us with only one viable option and tell us to freely choose. You cannot possibly get that from the quote in the OP. You've got God locking doors to keep us from going through one that we might go through otherwise. The quote in the OP has no doors locked - there are 31 flavors from which we can freely choose, and none are secretly off-limits, even though the one that we will choose is already determined. Until your illustration can account for that truth, well, it's back to third grade I guess.

By the way, can your third grader explain how something can be created from nothing?

The correlation is the same. God determined that person to get a specific Ice-cream INSTEAD OF all the others. They were locked out of that persons choosings. That person could no more choose Rocky-Road than he could open a locked door. So you see, the OP has God keeping that person from choosing any other flavors just as all the other doors are locked because God can not and will not ALLOW that person to choose anything else, period. If God did, it would contradict God's determining of what WILL transpire.

Come on whatever - this is C/A debate 101. Most Calvinists I have debated with use this type of analogy a lot, and it only serves to show greater inconsistancies with their view regarding how God soveriegnly rules with man having the free will to follow Gods preset course. Just be honest and state 'we don't know how the two work together but we know they are BOTH true." I can even agree with that! Uh-Oh, did that just make me a Calvinist? :laugh:

The scriptures don't even explain how God created something from nothing. But the scriptures do explain that man has a freedom to choose resposibly regarding any truth God reveals to man. It also teaches that God is in control of all things. But it does not anywhere tell how those two truths co-exist but we know they do. Man must choose and God is soveriegn Lord.

But still a third grader CAN tell you whether a person is choosing freely or doing what they are supposed to do.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The correlation is the same. God determined that person to get a specific Ice-cream INSTEAD OF all the others. They were locked out of that persons choosings. That person could no more choose Rocky-Road than he could open a locked door. So you see, the OP has God keeping that person from choosing any other flavors just as all the other doors are locked because God can not and will not ALLOW that person to choose anything else, period. If God did, it would contradict God's determining of what WILL transpire.

Come on whatever - this is C/A debate 101. Most Calvinists I have debated with use this type of analogy a lot, and it only serves to show greater inconsistancies with their view regarding how God soveriegnly rules with man having the free will to follow Gods preset course. Just be honest and state 'we don't know how the two work together but we know they are BOTH true." I can even agree with that! Uh-Oh, did that just make me a Calvinist? :laugh:

The scriptures don't even explain how God created something from nothing. But the scriptures do explain that man has a freedom to choose resposibly regarding any truth God reveals to man. It also teaches that God is in control of all things. But it does not anywhere tell how those two truths co-exist but we know they do. Man must choose and God is soveriegn Lord.

But still a third grader CAN tell you whether a person is choosing freely or doing what they are supposed to do.

Now Allan, you know how deterministic I am. This illustration that you have given does in fact make God the author of sin. I would not go that far. I believe that all the doors are unlocked. It is man that slams shut the door of righteousness. Men can taste righteousness, but it is like liver flavored ice cream.... they are repulsed by it. It is not until God changes their nature, which was before as children of wrath, that they will like the flavor that is righteousness. God does not lock the doors, we do. We all have a nature that is inclined away from God. He has to change that nature, to where we will freely choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will..... to receive Him. Those who do not receive Him, never had their nature changed (born again). Again however, you are the best calvinist non calvinist out there. I love you brother.

 

[whatever]

Come on whatever - this is C/A debate 101. Most Calvinists I have debated with use this type of analogy a lot, and it only serves to show greater inconsistancies with their view regarding how God soveriegnly rules with man having the free will to follow Gods preset course. Just be honest and state 'we don't know how the two work together but we know they are BOTH true." I can even agree with that! Uh-Oh, did that just make me a Calvinist? :laugh:

LOL, I think it is a start. But I don't know why you would imply that I am being dishonest. I have not said that I know how the two work together. I don't think it is possible for any of us to know how the two work together. But I do know that they are both true, and I cannot lessen one in order to affirm the other. Yes, man must freely choose, and he has many options from which to choose at any given time, none of which are closed to him. The quote in the OP affirms that. But his free choice cannot be other than what God already knows that it will be - hence it is determined. But that determination does not mean that the spurned options were not real.

The question then concerns how determination works, which is really C/A 101, and is really a different topic, I think.