Present Tense in John 5 Counters Futurist Argument

MOST of the Evangelical scholars that I have read would place Gospel of John around that period of time, but DO place his Epistles and especially Revelation at later date...

You cn use your point to palce Gospel, not other writtings though...

 

Unless John isn't measuring the earthly Temple.

Just saying, because the use of ἔστιν isn't a convincing case for the preterist dating of Revelation.

I'd primarily refer you to Dan Wallace's excellent article replying to this point (made often by other people): "John 5,2 and the Date of the Fourth Gospel" available here: http://bible.org/article/john-52-and-date-fourth-gospel-again

More than likely, in terms of Johannine grammar this is the use of a present that indicates the perspective of the speaker in the narrative that shouldn't be taken beyond what is used here. I'd encourage you to look at the short article (and plumb the depth of its resources) because it thoroughly replies to your question.

 

Tom,

Question: are you really serious?

 

Allow me to rephrase the question.

Question: Tom, in the OP above are you trying to make a serious theological statement?

 

I for one would certainly posit an early date for John's Gospel. It was written almost certainly after the other Gospels, but it could well have been before AD 70.

That does not mean, however, that he wrote Revelation at the same time.

What temple was still standing when Ezekiel wrote his Chapter 40? The Jerusalem Temple was a redundancy after our Lord's cricifixion (Matt 27:51; Heb 8:13). John is measuring professing Christians.

Steve

 

Sir,

Sorry if you find me annoying.

Without looking at the ramifications of allowing the idea regarding a present tense of John ch 6 vs 2 to be a proof of preterism (I guess it all depends on what "is" is), the whole ball of wax called "covenant theology" lives and dies based on what the ECF's and Eusebius wrote as being the gospel truth. And if Covenant theology goes, where does that leave preterism?

For your information, futurism can live fine with either an early or late date for the writing of Revelation, makes no difference. But in the case of preterism, Revelation must have an early date. I think you would make more hay with the traditional arguement that since the early creeds don't address eschatology in specific detail, preterism and or the a-mill position must be correct.

 

Many structures survived the sack of Jerusalem. The most likely
candidate for The Pool of Bethesda is a pool of water in the muslim Quarter of Jerusalem, on the path of the Beth Zeta Valley.

If it is so that it survived or even was repaired and/or rebuilt after the sack but before the writing of John's Gospel then John could mention it in the present tense after AD70.

HankD

 

Very interesting. All indications point to John being banished to the Isle of Patmos in about 95. We know John preached in Ephesus. It all fits together. Patmos, this small Island is not far from Ephesus. Revelation address' the churches shown close by in Asia.

John was evidently allowed to tarry in order to receive the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and to close out scripture. Closure could not come before it was time to close the Book.

I believe all things had to be settled, and understood by the Apostle. It was very difficult for those that will judge their people, of the earth, to fully come to the knowledge of the Gospel given to the Gentile. Salvation was changing from the law, prophets, and the ordinances required of Israel, to justification and Salvation that now comes By the Grace of God, through faith. John came to understand the Gospel that Christ Jesus had revealed to Paul. So much harder for the wife of God, than ones never being of the Covenant.

As to Revelation 11 the Temple is future of Israel, and the world, but not for those of the Body of Christ. Revelation is back to Israel, and back to Prophecy.

John wrote all of his books in his last days. Peter wrote his books while Paul still lived, telling Israel they had better come to understand the wisdom that had been given Paul. John could not have written any of his books before, or during the life of Paul. John had not been given authority from God to write before the death of Paul, and not before the destruction of the Temple. The Temple was the place where God met His People, and the proselytes (verse 2). After the stoning of Stephen, Israel was cut-off. Temple worship was no longer (until prophecy pick-up again) recognized by God, for His people refused God the Father, God the Son, and then the Holy Ghost. Three strikes and you are out.

Probably for another time, and discussion, but something, which should be, be of interest to one that delves into past, present, and future. Can you determine when you live in God's choosing?

 

Forgive me, but seldom have I seen a statement with less evidence behind it on the BB. Where in the world did you get this???

 

And that pretty much settles the argument for me.

 

Revelation 1: 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

Since John was on the isle of Patmos when reveltion was written that helps date it as we know he was not exiled there until after the destruction of Jerusalem.

Revelation 4: 1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

This settles the issue of Revelation 11:1 it is yet a future temple. Everything from Revelation 4:1 to the close of the book was yet future for John. With John on the isle of Patmos whne he wrote being in exile this would date the writing to at least 80 to 90 A.D. well after the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Since the events following Revelation 4:1 have yet to happen then they are still yet future events.

 

Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.​

This is in the context of a "little book".

Might that "little book" be the Book of Revelation which John was presently writing which would be his recorded legacy for generations to come?​

Revelation 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.​

HankD​