1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Prevenient Grace

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007.

Top Posters
Page 1 of 15
  1. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Could those who hold to prevenient grace please explain it to me scripturally? This is a sincere request as I have not a clue to how it is explained scripturally. Thanks in advance.
     
    #1 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  2. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2003
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes Received:
    1
    Well I guess you have to start with your definition of prevenient grace. From Wikipedia:



    To me this means that prevenient grace includes the concience that God puts within us wether we are saved or not and the witness he has given to us in the creation that surrounds us. Prevenient grace comes to us not due to our works or our state of righteousness but is given to all men.

    Verses that I would say address this doctrine would include:
    Matthew 5:45 shows us how God can pour out blessings on both the saved and the unsaved.



    Ps 145: 9 shows us how God is good to all men



    Acts 14:17 deals more specifically with how prevenient grace applies to all men when it tells us that:



    Likewise Acts 14:26-27 which says



    Likewise Ps 19:1-4, Ps 36:7, and Romans 1:19-20

    The basic idea is this. First, God has poured out his blessings on all men regardless of their works. Second, God has revealed himself in some way to all men. Even those who have never heard the Bible preached have in their hearts and in the creation around them enough information to begin to seek God. And if they seek him, God has promised to reveal more. Therefore, third, all men can be saved.

    Anyway, thats my thoughts.
     
    #2 North Carolina Tentmaker, Apr 12, 2007
  3. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    So it is the same thing as common grace?
    Is there another way for men to be saved other than Jesus? Of course God has revealed Himself to all men. The Gospel and Jesus has not been revealed to all men. :saint:
     
    #3 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    rb,

    Prevenient grace is the Holy Spirit working on us from the outside convicting us of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment -- John 16:8-11.

    skypair
     
    #4 skypair, Apr 12, 2007
  5. amity

    amity New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2006
    Messages:
    811
    Likes Received:
    0
    Another passage is John 1:9
    That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.​

    I think prevenient grace teaches that "effectual calling" happens to every man, but God's grace is resistable. It is something different than just saying that God sends the rain to the just and the unjust. It has to do with man's ability to respond to God, and that everyone has the ability to seek God.

    I don't believe in prevenient grace, so probably shouldn't contribute to this thread.
     
    #5 amity, Apr 12, 2007
  6. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Matt 11:21-27 refutes the idea that God wants all to be saved. If He wanted all to be saved then why didn't He work the mighty works so they would have been saved? He foresaw it. It is not because Jesus had not come yet, because faith is the saving. Abraham was saved by faith.
     
    #6 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  7. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    1,277
    Likes Received:
    0
    Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
    Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

    I know, I know. The 'us' in verse 14 denotes 'the elect', and that means the 'all men' in verse 11 refers to 'men of all nations' or 'all sorts of men'.
     
    #7 Blammo, Apr 12, 2007
  8. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    The doctrine of "prevenient grace" suggests that God really wants all people to receive salvation, and that He is really "doing all He can" to get the job done. Arminians suggest that God weeps over all lost souls, and that He sends His prevenient grace to all of them, just hoping that some of them will respond. But the God of the Bible is very different from this! Here we see in Matthew 11 that God *knew* what it would take for many people to repent and be saved, and nevertheless *withheld* it! That doesn't sound like God is "doing all He can" to me. And it certainly doesn't bode well for the man-centered doctrine of "prevenient grace".
    http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm

    Matthew 11:
    [21] "Woe to you, Chora'zin! woe to you, Beth-sa'ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
    [22] But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you.
    [23] And you, Caper'na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
    [24] But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."
    [25] At that time Jesus declared, "I thank thee, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes;
    [26] yea, Father, for such was thy gracious will.
    [27] All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
    ​
     
    #8 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    As Blammo pointed out, Titus 2:11 is as concrete as you get. I don't know how anyone can deny that.

    In addition...
    Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world (kosmos-universe), that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

     
    #9 webdog, Apr 12, 2007
  10. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    If He wants all to be saved then why didn't He perform the works for t s? Why did He bind them over if He knew what it would take for them to believe?
     
    #10 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  11. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I just answered that on the other thread :D
     
    #11 webdog, Apr 12, 2007
  12. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where did JDale go? I saw him earlier looking at the total depravity thread. I suppose he is busy. Like I need to be. :laugh:
     
    #12 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    You probably spooked him, spying on him and all... ;)
     
    #13 webdog, Apr 12, 2007
  14. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey..... it's a wonderful tool huh? :laugh:
     
    #14 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  15. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    I need to get to work on my sermon for Sunday. Thanks brothers. I love you.
     
    #15 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,902
    Likes Received:
    5
    God is not bound by time, But man IS.
    Jesus being in the flesh was bound to and in time as well.

    And there was not one prophet or man of God who could come CLOSE to doing at that time those things which Jesus did. At best the prophets did one maybe two miricles in the same day. Jesus was known to do multitudes in a day.
    But like I stated in another thread with you, about miricles, signs, and wonders...
    They are given to prove the person doing them are indeed men of God.This is important since Jesus is speaking to the Jews who understand this concept. Jesus was saying if I did these miricles among them, they would have known who I was and repented. But like them and the truths revealed to them, you too refuse to believe in light of the truth revealed..
    This in the context of signs and wonders being done authinticating the man of God.

    Also:

    God gave to them the same truths He gave to others during their same time period. Everyone receiving the same testimony and revelation of truth. But they refused.

    Just like there are most likely millions who would repent and come to Christ if He were here doing all that He did then, Now.
    But they have the same truths which we who have believed, recieved as well. But they reject it.

    Everyone is given the opportunity to know truth, just as everyone is responsible for what they do with the truth they received.
     
    #16 Allan, Apr 12, 2007
  17. Isaiah40:28

    Isaiah40:28 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2007
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    These assertions get more strange every day.
     
    #17 Isaiah40:28, Apr 12, 2007
  18. JDale

    JDale Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Messages:
    496
    Likes Received:
    2
    Faith:
    Baptist

    RB:

    Forgive my absence today. I have indeed been quite busy, and remain so. Allow me to say that some of the definitiions I've read here so far are accurate, and have been presented by those who probably have a better grasp on the subject that I do.

    That said, I'll try to post more addressing this later today or tomorrow.

    Blessings,

    JDale
     
    #18 JDale, Apr 12, 2007
  19. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ok brother. Take your time.... we will probably hash it out lol.
    I've just changed my sermon for Sunday.... so I might as well stay with this topic. I can't resist. Yes, we are very much a sovereign grace church. The sovereignty of God in all things, including salvation, is boldly preached at our church. :)
     
    #19 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
  20. reformedbeliever

    reformedbeliever New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Messages:
    2,306
    Likes Received:
    0
    Naa uhhhh........... lol.

    Mark 4:
    [11] And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
    [12] That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. ​
    Note that this particular passage is talking about conversion, and the forgiveness of sins.
    And note that Jesus does *not* want some people to be converted; He does not want them to have their sins forgiven. He forsees that they would have faith if they truly understood His message, but He explicitly says that He uses parables so that they will *not* understand Him. Again, God does not respond to foreknown faith by predestining them!
    Notice that Mark 4:11-12 actually demonstrates the *opposite* of prevenient grace. This is more like an example of Divine "prevenient hardening". Consider this comparison:
    The above two statements are completely in opposition to one another. Arminian "prevenient grace" is a doctrine that directly contradicts the Scriptures.
    Conclusion

    In Matthew 11:21-27, we can see that God sometimes withholds things from people, even when He knows that those very things would have brought people to repentance. These actions of God do not sound at all like the actions of Someone who wishes to enable the salvation of everybody.
    In Mark 4:11-12, we can see that Jesus intentionally spoke in parables, instead of plain language, so that many people would *not* understand, repent, and be forgiven. This is clearly the opposite of Arminian prevenient grace.
    http://www.biblelighthouse.com/sovereignty/prevenient.htm
     
    #20 reformedbeliever, Apr 12, 2007
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Page 1 of 15
Loading...