priest, pastor, or preacher?

[nodak]

I've been reading a bit of Baptist history, and have been struck by something.

We used to be taught a priest was a go between for God and mankind, and Baptists had no priest but Jesus, our great high priest. They rely greatly on apostolic succession to pass down their power.

Pastor has less priestly overtones, but a pastor is responsible to shepherd the flock making sure their beliefs and actions are, shall we say, kosher.

Preachers have the job of proclaiming God's Word. You are to be led by the Holy Spirit and are accountable to God, not the preacher, for what you do with the truth he proclaims.

Baptists in my neck of the woods had preachers, not priests or pastors.

Hence the use of "Bro so and so" instead of Pastor so and so or Reverend so and so.

Speaking only of my town, that has changed, with preachers assuming pastoral priestly functions.

Your area? Thoughts?

 

[matt wade]

Not exactly on your OP, but I believe the use of Reverend is a terrible practice. It elevates the man to a place he should not be elevated.

 

[mandym]

The church is accountable to the church. A wayward Christian should and does answer to the church for their poor behavior.

 

[nodak]

The church body as a whole certainly can disfellowship one who breaks their bylaws.

That isn't at all the same as seeing the preacher, pastor, priest, or whatever you have as being over that person's soul.

For that matter, the person is still accountable only to God. If they believe they need to do xyz to obey God and are kicked out of church for it, so be it.

Our a accountability is to God.

Otherwise, if your preacher tells you (or your church) that you have to, hmm, let's say your husband has to take a sister wife for you, unless your soul is accountable to GOD you better do so.

And yes--much of this goes to the whole "Rev. so and so" idea.

 

[Tom Bryant]

I've been reading a bit of Baptist history, and have been struck by something.

We used to be taught a priest was a go between for God and mankind, and Baptists had no priest but Jesus, our great high priest. They rely greatly on apostolic succession to pass down their power.

Pastor has less priestly overtones, but a pastor is responsible to shepherd the flock making sure their beliefs and actions are, shall we say, kosher.

Preachers have the job of proclaiming God's Word. You are to be led by the Holy Spirit and are accountable to God, not the preacher, for what you do with the truth he proclaims.

Baptists in my neck of the woods had preachers, not priests or pastors.

Hence the use of "Bro so and so" instead of Pastor so and so or Reverend so and so.

Speaking only of my town, that has changed, with preachers assuming pastoral priestly functions.

Your area? Thoughts?

A couple of thoughts, I agree totally that pastors are not priests in the OT sense of that term. But we ought to be going to God on behalf of the people God has given us in the church. Prayer ought to be a part of our daily ministry.

I would disagree about a church member not being accountable for the preaching that they disobey. We are all accountable to God for obeying His Word, but we are also accountable to the godly leaders whom God has placed over us.

Hebrews 13:17 - Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

I understand that pastors are not to be the FBI or CIA in investigating whether the people are actually doing what is being preached about, but we are accountable to God. Rather than puffing me up, this scares me to make certain that I am preaching God's Word.

I hate and refuse to be called Reverend, but if someone calls me preacher or pastor, I think they are honoring the job God called me to.

 

[mandym]

It is not just about breaking bylaws but more importantly about sinful behavior that remains unrepentant.

 

[nodak]

But mandym, what if the person does not believe they are sinning?

Like the sister wives scenario I gave you.

Bro Tom, respectfully, I'm one of those old time Baptists that believe the verse you quoted puts me responsible to the government or magistrate, not my preacher.

I would hope you pray for the people in the church and they for you, but should you fail they STILL HAVE ACCESS TO GOD so you do not function as their priest.

And I hope you do indeed preach the Word of God accurately and they are indeed responsible to God to obey HIS Word. But not YOUR word.

I was once, in another state, attending and about to join the local Baptist church. Until they started in with this being accountable to the preacher stuff. Turned out their preacher was going around telling folks to sell their houses and give him the money so HE could buy a house.

Um, respectfully, where were their brains?

Caught up in priestly authority, I would venture.

 

[mandym]

But mandym, what if the person does not believe they are sinning?

Like the sister wives scenario I gave you.

When you have to go to extremes to defend your position then you argument is weak.

Bro Tom, respectfully, I'm one of those old time Baptists that believe the verse you quoted puts me responsible to the government or magistrate, not my preacher.

The context is within the church not the secular government. And it is not an old time Baptist view you have there.

I would hope you pray for the people in the church and they for you, but should you fail they STILL HAVE ACCESS TO GOD so you do not function as their priest.

Kind of a straw man don't you think?

And I hope you do indeed preach the Word of God accurately and they are indeed responsible to God to obey HIS Word. But not YOUR word.

We can agree on that.

I was once, in another state, attending and about to join the local Baptist church. Until they started in with this being accountable to the preacher stuff. Turned out their preacher was going around telling folks to sell their houses and give him the money so HE could buy a house.

and yet another extreme example.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Bro Tom, respectfully, I'm one of those old time Baptists that believe the verse you quoted puts me responsible to the government or magistrate, not my preacher.

You may want to check out the context of the passage. It's not about government, it is about the church.

Paul apparently thought the men in 1 Corinthians was accoutable to him since he was the one who passed judgement on him. Then, when he had repented, Paul again told the church to receive him back into the church.

I understand that you are fighting against an overbearing pastor who has exceeded his authority. But I fear you are refusing to accept what the Scripture says.

 

[nodak]

Again, and respectfully, Bro Tom, I see that passage differently than you do.

mandym--yes, I have given you extreme examples......but they are real and valid.

And I don't think the good folks in the little village I was referencing just woke up one morning and decided to mess up their church. I think rather that the Roman Catholic concept of priesthood just slowly kind of snuck up on them until it overpowered their common sense.

Let me be clear--I do respect the preacher at our church and he teaches me so much of such value!

BUT--it is he (along with long ago Bro Joe in NM)who taught me we are to be as the Bereans, checking what is preached against the Word of God and letting no one come between us and God. Hence the "Bro Joe" terminology rather than "Father Joe" or "Rev. B."

I'm just wondering if we have lost that idea today?

 

[mandym]

I think rather that the Roman Catholic concept of priesthood just slowly kind of snuck up on them until it overpowered their common sense.

Why? could there not be any other reason for this? It has to be the RCC?

I'm just wondering if we have lost that idea today?

So because of one extreme example you feel the need to say we?

 

[seekingthetruth]

What about the 'Priesthood of all believers"? 1 Peter 2:5

It has always my understanding that Catholics have "priests" because they confess to the priest and then the priest asks God to forgive them. Whereas we Baptists believe that we are given the authority to go to God through Jesus.

In other words, Jesus is our one and only priest. We don't need another man to mediate for us.

But we do need preachers to teach us, and pastors to guide us. And yes, I think we use the terms preacher and pastor interchageably, but they are really not the same. I know preachers that don't pastor, and pastors that don't preach.

I came from the south and our pastor was always called "Brother Ed", although when he passed away two years ago the obit referred to him as "Reverend Ed". Here in Maine everyone calls their pastor "Pastor so and so".

My pastor is my best friend, and he likes me to call him by his first name when we are away from the church. He says that sometimes he just likes to be himself for awhile without the formality of the church.

Do any of you pastors ever feel like that?

John

 

[mandym]

What about the 'Priesthood of all believers"? 1 Peter 2:5

Which is about our responsibility in worship toward God. And which began in Exodus

 

[Tom Bryant]

Again, and respectfully, Bro Tom, I see that passage differently than you do.

Of course, you do... it goes against what you are saying. The government is not in view here. It is about the church.

By the way, do you have scripture for what you are saying?

I believe you have maybe been abused by pastors who have overstepped the authority gven to them by the Bible. And I am sorry for that.

Do you have scripture for what you are saying?

 

[nodak]

Bro Tom--Yes, I have scriptures but they are numerous.

Let me make it easier since I assume you have some resources at hand that I have.

Try chapters "The religious axiom: all men have an equal right to direct access to God" and "The eccliastical axiom: all believers have a right to equal privileges in the church" and "The moral axiom: To be responsible the soul must be free" in the Axioms of Religion by E Y Mullins. Those are full of scriptural references.

Don't misunderstand me--I do believe when a church calls a man to preach they vest in him the authority to preach the Word without holding back. He is not to tickle their ears and just say what they want to hear. Depending on the size of the church they may vest in him some other authority, such as to see to the running of the programs, etc. Thing is, though, I see the chain of authority as God over the individual soul, which unites in a voluntary manner with the local church. The Lord is in authority over that church, and by congregational governance the Holy Spirit will make His will known. The church then vests authority for different actions in the preacher, deacons, teachers, etc.

It would seem today many see the chain of command as being God calls a preacher to a town and he is then in authority over the souls of those living there, or that God calls a man to a specific church and puts him "in charge."

I have a hard time getting my head around that in baptist churches. I know it is common in many hierarchial churches, like RCC or some Reformed groups or some Methodist groups, etc.

I'm finding us tossing away the priesthood of THE believer today.

 

[jaigner]

Not exactly on your OP, but I believe the use of Reverend is a terrible practice. It elevates the man to a place he should not be elevated.

...or woman.

All it does is indicate he or she is ordained.

 

[Jim1999]

The proper terminology is The Reverend Mister,,,name. It was introduced in England as a term to designate your job under government listing.

I really don't care what anyone calls me. It is when they ignore me I have worries. Pastor is an office and not a title. Just call me Jim and all is well.

It is my job to draw respect for the office I hold by the Word I preach and live.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Jerome]

The English word priest is just a derivative form of presbyter (elder).

presbyter >> prester >> priest

 

[HAMel]

A few years ago I e-mailed Dr. Sheldon Smith asking if they had any "Pastors" who regularly contributed to their publication. That all I ever saw and read was sermons from the likes of, "Dr So And So, MHR, DD, RYP, QR, YIP, YAP, etc. (Exaggerated a bit here but...)

In my mind and from my experience some of the best sermons ever orated was from the likes of "Pastor" or "Brother". You know, folks like Brother Mays..., of the Truck Drivers Special. Oliver Green. John Franks (made up) from the First Baptist Church, Back Water, West Virginia. Jimmy Sims from the 2nd Baptist Church, Blue Fish Gorge, Tennessee.

...ask me if Sheldon Smith was torn out of the frame. Go ahead. Ask. He accused me of being angry with God. :laugh:

Titles such as the Reverend Doctor Mr. Holy kinda turns me off.

...much like I turn some of you folks off. :tongue3:

 

[matt wade]

A few years ago I e-mailed Dr. Sheldon Smith asking if they had any "Pastors" who regularly contributed to their publication. That all I ever saw and read was sermons from the likes of, "Dr So And So, MHR, DD, RYP, QR, YIP, YAP, etc. (Exaggerated a bit here but...)

Just looked at a Sword of the Lord and over half the articles are written by someone with no title in front of their name. The most I saw was someone's name prefixed by Dr. In 2 or 3 cases, it was simply a name followed by "Pastor of XXXX Church".